metformin, it can reverse liver disease and IR

[merryBe]

I'm having a real dilemna here, and I would really like to see more discussion of this topic.

here is a great synopsis I just found:


http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v6/n9/full/nm0900_998.html

WOW, that was a mouthful!!

in light of the findings from all those studies listed I would think this needs much closer examination.

In light of the fact that I am currently UND and have no virus, the reversal of fatty liver and less necrosis and less HCC all sounds very appealing, not to mention any reduction in IR would mean ones own Interferon response would be better post tx. and this alone may increase ones chances of an SVR even if begun at the end of an SOC regime.
Perhaps now, more than any other time it could help insure one will recognize any lingering HCV and seek and destroy as designed.
As long as one kept the dose low, monitored the liver, and watched for lactic acidosis, what would be the harm in trying?

arguments in favor or opposed please weigh in, if obese women went from 20% to 60% SVR that should tell us something??

mb

[bajawoman]

Well I may not be the brightest kid on the block but was raised to use logic and finding out I had IR made all the difference in my approach to treatment for HCV


I listened to CoWriter CS and HR all three said the same thing need to treat  the IR  First

Once you are diabetic it is a steady downhill road no cure for Diabetes but there is a definate program to treat Type 2 diabetes with out having to take injections the rest of your life

So finding out IR sooner rather than too late, was a blessing and I am going to be forever thankful and greatful  to coming on this forum which I was lucky enough to Meet Meet Cowriter who spotted my IR  right away and had me order blood work for a HOMA test which I immediately did

Then Meeting CockSparrow who steared me to HR  with their help and with CoWriter

I was able to make up my own mind after discussing my situation with them and
My GI who I am treating under sharing all the knowlege and studies with him

I saved myself from going on treatment ill prepared and enlightened my GI who now can help others he reads all the info I send him and shares it with his associates in the mainland Mexico

I am IN FAVOR and one does not have to be OBESE to have IR  OBESE can happen from being IR or genetic tendencies that needs to be recognized in Children Obese tendencies and  with IR/Diabetic parents or grandparents needs to be handled and under control from an early age  ComeAgain is right  Not a good thing to have whether you have HCV or not

I am stage 2 fatty liver stage 3 fibrosis I am working on the IR with the sups HR recommended  and the sups  recommended by HR to keep my fibrosis stable I am going to work on the HVC  
my viral load last June was 47,300,000  

I will get another viral load test before treatment
and continue to monitor my liver with  visits to my GI and Lab work

Thanks MB for posting
Saludos
baja

[merryBe]

thanks, say didn't you say you were taking some HR recommended things for IR.

which ones are you taking for that?

I'm looking at all alternatives now.  My doc recommended I go on Byetta if the BS goes back up, but it's expensive, and shots and monitoring...yuk.

So that wouldn;t be my first choice, although he seems to think it's safer for the liver.

I'm going to take some studies to my endocrinologist next week in the hope of doing all to avoid another pony ride (after 22 months who can blame me).....

So everybody throw me whatever YOU"VE GOT !!!!!

mb

[merryBe]

speaking of all this, here's a cool HOMA calculator I found:

http://www.dtu.ox.ac.uk/index.php?maindoc=/homa/index.php

mb

[bajawoman]

Basically the same ones CS is taking that HR recommended to him  Gauf also has posted on his profile
I get all my sups on line and they send them to me here in Mexico HR recommended where to buy them and I did on line The Resveritrol is the only one I get direct from Resveritrol.com
I am taking Resveritrol 1000 working up to 2000mg per day
I am also taking from LifeExtentions.com
Mega Silymarin 900mg twice a day(milk thistle
Taurine one cap a day 500mg bought this in good health food store in LA
Green Tea Extract 725 mg one cap a day
curcumin Tumeric 250mg 3 a day bought this in good health food store in LA
NAC 600mg twice a day  bought this in good health food store in LA
Super R-Lioic Acid 300 mg twice a day
fish oil omega  4 caps a day bought this in Costco
TMG powder twice a day
folic acid vitamin B12 caps twice a day with the TMG ad R-Lipoc acid
CoQ10 50mg twice a day
Mary I also bought from Life Extentions the Human Growth Hormone after reading your posts it is in Liquid form 30 drops under the tongue in the morning as suggested on the bottle
hope I am not leaving anything out  I became a member of LEF.com or lifeextentions and I get a discount the sups come within about 10 days to Mexico after ordering they ship all over the world  good company I will order all my sups from them when I run out of the ones I bought from other places
baja

[merryBe]

so how much of a reduction did you get on you IR/HOMA etc.

I thank you for reading my long winded post, but I'm afraid to tell you the evidence that the oral forms of HGH work is very sketchy at best.
I did quite a bit of reading hoping some oral argine or something would work, but the thing that consistantly raises the IGF is the actual human enginneered hormonal protein
chain. Which is still injectable only.

However, IF you are monitoring you IGF and getting a rise in your level than please let me know so I can add that to my thread. I know Merck was working on a oral version, however it was raising peoples IGF  AND their BLOOD SUGARS, which is NOT a good thing.  The injectable human growth hormone does not do this.

Best to you in upcoming tx. you are doing lots of things right, please preload with an antidepressant to save grief, and please don't wait too much longer,  47 mil is a great concern and one would think you would be anxious to treat at that number.

Have you considered preloading Alinia? It may be far less expensive in Mexico, being it is an antiparacytical it is in wider use in warmer climes.

mb

[bajawoman]

I am not actually taking the IGF drops did do for a few days but did not mix well with the sups the sups by themselves do take some getting used to

I know I need to do something soon which is what I am trying to get the IR down and if I have to treat sooner than later;
sooner being with better drugs as  HR recommended
but he said to definatley not TX without Alinia if I cannot wait  and use Metaformin if I need it
I have been on Lexapro for some time but just 10mg a day

I am happy with the sups I feel I am doing something positive
getting a CAT scan this friday and lab work to check my HOMA  and a HEP B panel

I want to tx sooner may not wait for the new drugs but really want to know more about who I am physically going in  so worried that it may cause more congnitive damage
and RA pain or whatever it is pain which is pretty bad now

also doing research on Occult Hepatitis B which I may or may not have will find out soon seems from some older articles by Dr D it could be a negative for SVR too

[merryBe]

hmm..I'd actually be more suspicious of the curcurmin causing gastro issue, I couldn't tolerate it AT all.

as to the drops, the liklihood is they'll do nothing...there are always plenty of companies counting on people NOT doing their homework, and here absorption and conversition are key with HGH.
I don't know how familiar you are with the term bioidentical hormones, but I was on them before any of my docs other patients, long before susan summers or oprah discovered them medical research had proved the differences in all the identicals vs. synthrtic subs.

there is a letter writing campaign for compassionate use of teleprevir now in here, you may want to join in that.  Eventually Inovio seems to have the greatest promise I think, right now anyway their vaccine kills 99% of virons,,,,then SOC is a mop up..and much easier to get to SVR...however they are only just now starting phase 3 so it'll be a while.

I'm sure opinions will vary in here, but 47 million means from what I understand that your liver damage will be occuring more quickly, your immune system is already worn out.
The labs don't always tell the whole story either....sometimes while in the latter stages (3/4) they can go back to almost normal...as most of the liver is shot they are deceptively low as they are only reflecting what the little liver tissue left is doing.

I think jmjm elaborated on this once, but my memory is not always accurate.

In any event, at that viral load your stage could go up at one stage per year or more, so from what I understand the higher the VL the more imperative to treat EVEN if it only means you knock down the virus while treating for a year, it would give your liver a rest, and a better chance at still being intact enough to treat with better drugs when they do come out.
You are right to be concerned about the RA, but remember the better drugs, all of the and antivirals and new PI's also have the SOC included, so either way you'll be getting the same chance at exascerbating that. However, yout immune system is in overdrive is you have RA, having enough INF on board to deal with the virus MAy improve it.

Look at it this way you have 47 million virions in each tiny ml of blood. just a few drops contains that many...a ml is only 1/4 of a teaspoon...makes you wonder how the blood still fits into the same space!!
So you are fighting all that virus with no help...and now your immune system has gone beseerk fight it...and is attacking other things too....so maybe the boost that bringing INF on board will give you, might give your spleen enough of a rest to settle down...and actually slow your autoimmune stuff....not saying it will work that way, just saying it can.
It can go either way. They don't tell you that. Heck they use INF on MS, and it slows that down, so I'm just saying....you gotta do your own homework, there are always down sides and upsides... Yet the bottom line is if you don't try then your liver will eventually suffer too much injury to keep up...and you've gotta have a liver to live.

I'm not trying to scare you here, just trying to make sure you understand what's at stake.
My liver was at stage 3/4...and the doc still said well you could live another 5-15 years...
easy for him to say...he didn't have the enlarged liver and spleen, he wasn't in pain going beyond all distraction, or exausted to the point of not knowing if he's wake up....
that ain't livin'....if you catch my drift.

Have you got any recent labs? Are you treating state side or in baja??

I wish I could give you something more hopeful than SOC, I did write to the MD heading up the Inovio research a while back, to try and get  the ph 3 locations...so far no response there.

mb

[Trinity4]

All I can say to that is if you are not IR or have type 2 diabetes you don't want to be on metformin.  My husband is diabetic and needs it but why would you want to take it if you don't need it?  

Too much IR resistance information going around these days.  Either your IR or your not.  Tx life doesn't revolve around IR resistance, diabetes, obesity etc, etc.  I think it's good to be aware, but all the information lately has been a bit much. Prior to tx fasting glucose was normal.  My fasting has been at 100 - 103  for the last several months. 52 wks into tx.  Can't change anything now and I believe it's do the tx meds and the addition of Neup.  If it doesn't go away after tx, then I'll check into it. Otherwise, I'm not going to worry about.

Merrybe I'm not trying to hijack your thread.  I hope people chime in and give you input.  I'm getting weary of all the IR stuff that's all.  There are many many other concerns while on tx besides IR and it can become overwhelming if you let it effect you.  By the way, I've stopped checking my fasting glucose.  It was becoming obsessive.

Trin

[JennyPenny]

I really like your post. It is important to have a balanced view of these things. Like you, I believe IR is important but it isn't the be all end all to treatment success. We have on our message board, plenty of obese, type 2 diabetics with geno 1, who have successfully completed treatment. It is just one more thing to look at.

[desrt]

JennyPenny
Agree. Miles has been exploring the link between IR and IR for 6 years that I know of (and taking Metfomin) and has never cleared. I went into tx  IR, came out IR, and am SVR 6 years (many thanks to you, Linda B, and many others.)

CockSparrow may or may not SVR this time. I pray he does.

Bajawoman:
Who's your daddy?
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/678572
Oh well, you're getting it taken care of and in your case it may mak a difference. Good Luck.

[nelson958]

What is IR please?

Nelson

[bajawoman]

The formula to see whether you're insulin resistant (is called HOMA) .....you multiply the insulin x fasting blood sugar and divide them by 405.
IR is Insulin Resistant or pre diabetic can be useful to know prior or during tx

[desrt]

IR is insulin resistance also sometimes used to mean interferon resistance. IR and IR are connected.

[CoWriter]

desrt said....
"Bajawoman:
Who's your daddy?"

Tell him who your daddy is....ROFL

Co

[CoWriter]

It reverses fatty liver in people too.  There's an abstract from AASLD about it.  That being said, I would never recommend going on Metformin after you SVR'd if you don't really need it.

Bayetta doesn't work like Metformin does BTW.

Co

[CoWriter]

" I'm getting weary of all the IR stuff that's all. '
-----------------

I totally understand.  Probably just as weary as I get when I hear people recommending fat with riba.

Co

[mikesimon]

I found it interesting nonetheless.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/589647

Metformin May Up Alzheimer's Protein if Used Alone
Metformin Beta-Amyloid Effect Raises Alzheimer's Concerns

Janis Kelly

March 16, 2009 — Diabetes mellitus is associated with increased risk for Alzheimer's disease (AD), but a new study of metformin suggests that diabetes treatments might bear some of the blame.

Yaomin Chen, PhD, from the Burnham Institute for Medical Research, in La Jolla, California, and colleagues report in the March 10 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that metformin increased insulin's reduction of intracellular and extracellular beta-amyloid accumulation, but metformin by itself actually increased levels of the Alzheimer's-linked peptides.

This finding, which was observed in vitro and in animal models of AD, raises the specter of a wave of new Alzheimer's cases in diabetic patients who have been taking metformin for years. It is the most popular antidiabetic drug in the United States and 1 of only 2 oral antidiabetics on the World Health Organization List of Essential Medicines (along with glibenclamide). In 2006, there were 35 million prescriptions for generic metformin filled in the United States.

Senior author Francesca-Fang Liao, PhD, told Medscape Psychiatry that although this was an animal study, the findings are worrisome enough that physicians should promptly follow up any complaints of cognitive decline in patients taking metformin.

"Our data suggest that metformin used alone might potentially facilitate development of AD pathology," Dr. Liao said. "This raised the question of whether the increased AD risk in diabetes mellitus patients might be due to the medication itself.

"Extensive animal studies as well as epidemiological data from clinical patients should be collected and carefully analyzed to address this question." Dr. Liao was at the Burnham Institute for Medical Research when this study was done but is now at the University of Tennessee Health Science Center, in Memphis.

Safer to Use Metformin in Combination Therapy?

The upregulation of beta-amyloid generation by metformin in animal models of AD occurred at steady-state plasma levels at and even below those reported in diabetic patients.

Metformin is an insulin-sensitizing drug, and the researchers found that giving it together with insulin added to insulin's known ability to reduce beta-amyloid generation.

"Our data suggest that the potentially deleterious effects of metformin to AD patients may be avoided by using it in combination with insulin; the combination may result in a beneficial effect in treating both type 2 [diabetes mellitus] and in mitigating AD progression," the researchers write.

AD expert Michal S. Beeri, MD, from the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, in New York, told Medscape Psychiatry, "The report by Chen is very interesting and consistent with a study from our group showing that brains of diabetics who, when alive, received combination therapy (ie, insulin plus an insulin sensitizer) had 80% less neuritic plaques (1 of the hallmark lesions of AD).

"This paper is also consistent with another study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences [De Felice FG et al. Proc Natl Acad Sci. 2009;106:1971-1976] showing that soluble beta-amyloid oligomers (precursors of neuritic plaques) promote loss of surface of insulin receptor, that this loss can be prevented by insulin, and, most interesting, that adding the insulin sensitizer rosiglitazone [Avandia, GlaxoSmithKline] to insulin potentiates this protection.

"These studies suggest that there might be some protective mechanism that is triggered when the brain is exposed to insulin and insulin sensitizers at the same time, and this in turn has therapeutic potential," she said.

Randomized Control Trials Needed

With regard to the apparent deleterious effects of metformin, Dr. Beeri is more cautious, noting that large, placebo-controlled, double-blind trials will be required to establish that this happens in human patients as well as in animal models and in vitro.

"I think Chen's study is very important and strengthens the concept of diabetes medication effects on Alzheimer's neuropathology, but at this point I do not think that there is clinical evidence for clinicians to be concerned when treating their diabetic patients with metformin," she said.

The study was supported by National Institutes of Health grants, the Alzheimer's Association, and a Zenith Award. The authors report no conflicts of interest.

[portann]

I read that yesterday but was literally afraid to post it. Too much zealotry going on.

My cousin is a researcher and endocrinologist, head hunted by the Mayo Clinic, and director of a Metabolic Syndrome clinic.  He doesn't see the world through the one lens of Insulin Religion.

In fact, he's not very happy with Metformin. He'd roll his eyes to hear our Metformin converts. Perhaps his gold medal at medical school was a sham or at least some of our members might say so.

Never think that you completely understand things and, as a corollary, never trust anyone who tries to convince you that he does.

[mikesimon]

I did find it interesting but if there is any connection between Metformin and Alzheimer's disease I doubt very much that it applies to short term use. I would guess that if there is a connection it would be with long term usage. I am diabetic so I probably have more interest in this subject than most. I don't use Metformin however.
Mike

[FlGuy]

'Diabetes mellitus is associated with increased risk for Alzheimer's disease (AD), but a new study of metformin suggests that diabetes treatments might bear some of the blame. '

Thanks for the good news.  My doc just upped my dose.  I'll have to ask him about this next time I see him.  If I can rememebr, that is.

[CoWriter]

Thanks Mike.  I hadn't seen that one. Seems as if it's one of those "damned if you do and damned if you don't"

Diabetes increases the risk of Alzheimer's even without the Metformin.  

The question is....would Metformin do that is you had to take it for let's say....48 weeks?  And if you're only IR, not diabetic.  

I know you don't know....I don't either.  I'm just thinking out loud.

Co

[FlGuy]

What is the line of demarcation between IR and diabetic?  Is there a numeric value?

[CoWriter]

You're diabetic if your fasting blood sugar is above 126 on two consecutive occasions.  But sometimes you start to beccome insulin resistant years before you become diabetic.

A fasting blood sugar above 100, an abnormal HOMA or an abnormal 2 hour glucose tolerance test would tell you whether you're IR and not yet diabetic.

Co

[JennyPenny]

Let me know what you find out from your doc FlGuy. I just started metformin last week.

Desrt, ok so can I have another clue as to who you are? Desrt does not ring a bell. And I just got off the phone with Miles. I'd love to tell him hi from you.