I hope someone can answer this question. I started the Suboxone treatment yesterday with a horrible outcome. Long story short, I ended up finding another detox location closer to my home to go through instead of the one I went to yesterday. The med office wanted me to come in on a daily basis to get my dose for the day. Mind you, I paid, up front for the pills. I got my prescription filled, then decided that I didn't want to do it that way, and came home with my prescription. I don't need anyone writing saying that the docs do that for safety, blah blah blah. I know this. I get the reasons why they do it. My situation is different though and I'm not willing to play by their rules. Might sound bad to you, but I'm being honest. I plan on taking the pills WHEN they are needed.. only when I'm symptomatic. After a week to 10 days, I then plan on weening myself off the Suboxone. I understand that the withdrawal from that is not as bad as with Lortab. I started taking the Lortab because of kidney stones, not because I was trying to get high or party or whatever. I became physically addicted because of a medical situation. My question is this..... can I get into any LEGAL trouble for not returning to the clinic? I did not sign anything nor was I an inpatient. The "rules" at the clinic were that I was to get the RX filled, bring it back to the clinic and let them dispense it to me daily. I just got the RX filled and drove home. I'm going to do this MY way. I just don't want the cops showing up causing problems for me. Maybe a bit paranoid. But right now, with the way I feel, that's the last thing I need. Thanks. Thanks in advance.
YEA ive always tried to do things my way too, cause my body wanted the drug and that was that. i too started taking lortab due to a medical situation and six years later im doing things completely out of character to obtain my drug. ive taken other peoples meds. lied to doctors and on and on. in some of the situations i didn't get caught but i was always left with the guilt of not doing the right thing. mind you, some situations i did get caught and now im being forced to do something about my addiction. im leaving for in patient treatment in one week and its really a result of doing things MY WAY. I see your point................i never wanted anyone handing out my drugs either, never wanted people to spoil my plans. now im face to face with life doing things others way or death.
No I dont think you can get in trouble....Suboxone docs are taught that the people they will be seeing are addicts who are at thier last straw.....(and i think they say take em for everything you can)....It's leagel drug dealing....Can you imagine buying drugs from someone and then giving them back to the dealer to give to you when he wants......
There is a reason he had you fill the script.......If you gave them to him on your own then there would be nothing you could do.....
I bet (knowing Sub doctors) that he bugs the hell out of you....Even tells you that the cops are coming.....Send certified letters....Bill you extra......
I think only crooked doctors get into the Sub bussiness....and i bet they all had some issues that caused them to start the Sub program....
I dont know much about Sub , But isnt it addictive in itself? Im not saying that its a bad thing . As long as a person is able to get off of it when the WD process is over. Im not much help as far as what they can do. I had to taper and did fine with that because I was scared to go the sub or methadone route due to more addiction. Good luck.
I understand how you feel about wanting to do things your way, I know I felt that way many times. I won't lecture you on how un-healthy it is to continue to do the same things expecting different results - I'm sure you already know that. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are of "running" away from the agreement you had with the clinic/detox. I do know that if the rules were to bring the prescription to them for dispensing, you will be hearing from them one way or another. I also want to tell you that you may not know as much about Suboxone as you think for a couple of reasons. First - detoxing from suboxone can be difficult, and in some cases more difficult than the drugs we used beforehand. Second - a week to 10 days may not be the right detox schedule for you and after that time span you will still feel withdrawals.
Also, many people became physically and mentally addicted to pain medication due to a medical situation such as yours. Not everyone becomes an addict by "partying". Please don't take offense to this, but it sounds as though you either don't understand addiction or are not ready to stop. You said "My situation is different though and I'm not willing to play by their rules." All addicts say that over the course of time, and this may come back to bite you. These clinics/detox centers have rules set in place for reasons - one of them being that we don't know everything. Which ultimately is why we go there to start with. Your honesty is appreciated, however, your decision may have more than just legal ramifications. You could also still go to/call the detox and be honest with them about what's going on, and they may be able to work something out that better suits you and your lifestyle. Good luck to you in your endeavor!
As cat said most of the people here became addicted because of chronic health problems. Honestly the way we ended up getting addicted in the long run really does not matter addicted is addicted regardless of how you started .
There is a possibility you could get in trouble .The doctor prescribed those meds for you to work a program and your now refusing to do . Its kind of important especially in the beginning to have a doctor involved until you can be stabilized on a starting dose.There is nothing wrong with short tapers That would be the only way I would ever use it .With long term use it really ends up being just as bad as your d.o.c
I understand where everyone is coming from regarding the way I've chosen to do this detox. I realize that addicts are manipulators and that many are in denial about their illness. I know that for many of you, reading what I've said above makes you think that I'm in total denial about my illness. I get it. However, I'm not. Once I realized that I was no longer in pain, which was about 10 days ago, I decided it was time to get off the pain meds. I contacted Kaiser and made an appointment for the detox program. It took a week to get me in to see the doctor. That was last Friday. I went in and answered a bunch of questions that a nurse had asked me, never once seeing a doctor. The ridiculous thing about that doctor visit is that
#1. I never saw a doctor.
#2. I received NONE of the information that I was given yesterday (about having to come to the clinic daily)
I just found it so pathetic that the information I was giving to the nurse was then being relayed to the doctor (by the nurse) and that is how the doctor was forming his opinion. He based his diagnosis and his detoxing program for me without EVER seeing me or speaking to me. I only saw him right before he gave me the script for the meds. Yesterday, after I posted about just leaving after getting my RX filled, the doctor did reach me by phone.. needless to say, he was not thrilled with my behavior and the consequences to my behavior is that he has blocked my medical record number from being allowed any opiate scripts being written to it. Which is pretty laughable anyway considering that is the whole point of the detox in the first place. Another interesting thing is that my primary doctor can overwrite that if she wants to anyway. We have a wonderful professional relationship and I've always been honest with her about things. There is a mutual respect. As long as I would have called in for the refill on my lortab, she would have filled it. It was I who contacted her once I realized that I wasn't in pain any more and asked about getting off the lortab comfortably.
Anyway....... after I posted yesterday... my husband and I spent hours, and I mean hours, reading information on Suboxone. We discussed what we'd read and came up, together, with a plan for my detoxing. After all he read, my husband admitted to me that he was concerned that I perhaps was not being totally honest about my taking the pain meds with him. He said he'd feel better if he was in control of my meds and was able to dispense them to me daily. For me, that wasn't any big deal. After all, I know my husband loves me and it is only out of concern for me. I knew that I wouldn't have any problem if the meds were sitting in our medicine cabinet and I was able to take them as I needed them. But he said he would feel better if he had them in his possession. Ok. He has put them in his safe, which I do not know the combination. We both came to the realization that the shortest amount of time on the Suboxone is best. I really want to use them for less than the 21 days (which seems to be the shortest recommended detox). So, right now, we are being I guess optimistic..... since I've never taken the drug for any amount of time, I don't know how realistic we're being. But we're going to try this. I have taken 2, 2 mg pills today. I am going to try to not take anymore until tomorrow. Only if I'm deathly ill tonight will I take another one. But if it's just lack of sleep that is affecting me, I'm not taking one. My husband has even said he'll drink coffee and stay awake with me watching movies or giving me back rubs. Whatever it takes. So if I can handle only the 2 pills today, then tomorrow our plan is to only take a pill when I'm EXTREMELY ill. We're hoping that I'll only need 1 pill tomorrow. Our thoughts are even with the worst scene scenario being that I end up taking 2 pills a day for a week....... then the following week will be me weening off the suboxone. We discussed the fact that it seems the longer you are taking the suboxone, the worse the detox is...... if I could actually ween off the Suboxone in a week to 10 days, my detox program will be over within hopefully 14 days. But even if it takes 21 days, that means that I'll be weening off the meds for over a week, not actually taking it for 21 days before stopping it.
Gosh, I hope that makes sense.
While it's a little discouraging that my husband has doubts right now.. I'm okay with it because ... well first of all, I sort of proved him wrong by my willingness to give up the meds and let him handle them for me. But I just feel like that I'll prove to him that there is no manipulation going on nor is there any denial. That will only be proven with time and my success with the detox plan we've worked out.
The last thing we plan to do is when I'm finished detoxing... I plan to take the remaining suboxone pills back to the doctor who gave me the script for them in the first place. Hopefully he'll listen to how I did MY detox and maybe even learn something. I know this much already, the amount they told me I should be taking each day to start with, I did not need that much. They wanted me to take 12 mg a day. Yesterday, I took a total 6 mg and I was fine. That is half the amount they were planning on giving me.
I suppose I'm being very optimistic. But I think it's better to be positive than be negative. I mean, I will hate to have to eat crow and post here that I've been totally wrong and I'm sicker than a dog and the plan we came up with failed miserably... but if that's the case, I'll admit that and seek more help. But I really think I'll be able to keep everyone posted daily on how I've been feeling and the amounts I've taken each day with the end result being my success at stopping all opiates.
I do appreciate all input... neg and pos. Thanks for everyone who responded. I will write tomorrow and let you all know how it's going. Thanks again.
I had a great night. I was able to sleep. I did end up taking a total of 3 pills, for a total of 6mg yesterday. I was comfortable all day. I took a pill this morning at 8:00 am and I continue to feel great.
Through several back and forth conversations with another member here, My husband and I slightly revised my detox plan. I won't go into it again, but it's just a little bit shorter than the original one. By about 6 days.
I am still feeling optimistic. I see the phrase, "get out of jail free" card used a lot and maybe I was given one. I think it's still too early to tell. But as of right now, I feel like this drug, Suboxone, is in fact the miracle pill. Another strange thing for me, when I put things into perspective is the fact that just ONE of my lortab pills has MORE of the opiate in it than the THREE pills I took yesterday. Lortab has 7.5 mg of the opiate and the Sub has 2 mg per pill. I realize that there is a difference in the two drugs and their chemical make ups, but when I realized that fact, much of feelings of well being didn't really make sense. When you consider the fact that in a day I was taking up to 10 lortabs, at 7.5 mg each pill, and then cutting that opiate usage down to 6 mg PER DAY .. I should be feeling terrible.
Today is day 4. I keep waiting for the bomb to drop. So far, so good. I keep praying and asking the Lord to continue to carry me. I've been thinking so much about that poem "Footprints"... you guys know the one... I really feel like I am being carried right now. And that if there was sand, there would only be one set of footprints. I'm praising MY God like you wouldn't believe.
I'll check back later and let you know how my day ended up being.
Thanks again for all the emails and posts and support. You all are truly wonderful for your care and concern.
I hate to be the person to give you the bad news but you are very uninformed about sub.
How many lortabs were you taking daily?
IMHO if it isn't a great quantity then tapering off the lortab would have been much easier than weening off sub. Sub is a wonderful tool if you have a huge habit or are a heroin user but that is where it should stop.
You say you are taking less opiate than one lortab? Did your doctor not tell you these are two different beasts? Go to google and put in opiate and sub conversion and see what comes up. I know there are sites that do this but I think you have jumped from the frying pan into the fire unless you were on at least 20 lortab 10's a day.
I know doctors get carried away with this medicine but there are some good doctors out there and you are very wrong about your dosage. I imagine at 6mg a day you are feeling good.
I will look for the conversion site and let us know how many lortab 10's you were taking and we can hopefully help you with this.
Hi I found the conversion. In order to for the lortab quantity to equal what you are now taking in sub you should have been taking at least 18 10mg hydro/lortab a day. Please get more information on sub before going any further.
Originally Posted By: nephro
I would like to see one of those charts.
Sorry Nephro I should not talk about it without posting the URL. My old bookmark is toast, but I found this by searching Opiate/Opioid conversion chart.
I am not sure if this is correct some look a little off and some look right. My old list was solid and for doctors to reference. This is some guy’s estimation. I'll keep looking, but for now look at this.
I am sorry I didn't see where you posted you were taking 10 7.5's daily. You should then only be taking at the most 2.5mg of sub daily and thats at the high end.
My other advice about sub is do a quick taper down to the lowest dose you can take and jump. You will still have w/d's but the physical part will be better. The malaise and depression will unfortunately still be there.
I am sorry this isn't better news but it is better to know what you are up against.
so much negativity. Kinda depressing I managed yesterday to take only the 2 pills. So a total of 4 mg of the Sub. I had a comfortable day. It's almost 11 am here and I have yet to take a pill today. So, for me, my plan is working. I am very comfortable and still weening off the meds. I have my schedule up on the fridge and am sticking to. Every person is different and we'll see what happens. Maybe I will have to eat crow in the end, but right now, i'm feeling optimistic about how all of this is going to turn out.
I am glad you are commited to getting off all this stuff. i do understand what you were saying..but listen..as far as sub..the above poster is correct about the conversion. You really can't compare the 2..just like methadone. Why not take a couple mgs less of sub and take it more frequently..like coolio said..break it in half..if you need it ,it will be there..but from the lower amount of the pain meds you were taking ,the w/ds probably wouldn't have been as bad as the sub can be..either way good luck..
In regards to the conversion i wanted to share what my doctor said to me about this when I asked him about this very thing. He said there really is no way to actually "compare" suboxone to other opiates. His example was: when you first come in and you have been taking 120 mg of hydro, oxy etc. and he gives you 8 mg that works to make you feel comfortable and takes away the withdraws. You then proceed to taper and in two weeks you are now taking, say 4 mg, with the same effect then it actually looks like the 8 mg and the 4 mg would be the same as the 120 mg of hydro etc b/c it is making you comfortable. I know I am not explaining this as well as he did but it made sense to me. I am also sorry that you are getting negative feedback as I started on suboxone and did a quick taper. I relapsed very quickly and realized that I had not given my body time to get used to being with the pills, as well as the "routine" that goes with it. So, I am now back on suboxne and doing a slower taper. Since I am not off of it yet I cannot tell you how it will be coming off but I have high hopes. I am also going to NA meetings (actually just started) b/c I also realized you do need some help if, like me, you were taking them only for recreational purposes, not medical. Good luck. I know there are a lot of people on here who have had great results with suboxone, just not sure where they are right now.
I didn't want to sound negative I just wanted you to know you were not educated on sub. Sub is a very useful tool and done correctly can be very helpful. That being said I think you need a doctor and follow up plan in the picture. I know you were not happy with the sub doctor who gave you the prescription but there are others. Without a doctors help and follow up plan relapse is a big danger because when you stop the sub there are still w/d's. Your husband being on your side is a big plus but sometimes we need more.
I only share this information with you because I have unfortunately been down this road before.
I think that people are trying to explain thats all. Most have been there . Getting sub and not going back is dangerous. And if you dont know about the drug it can be harmful. You could have left that clinic or told the doctor that you needed to speak to him more and not go through the nurse. There are always other doctors but now they have black listed you and if something bad did happen and you needed pain meds you cant get them. And I have worked with a pharmacy and sometimes it doesnt matter if your PCM will over write it . it comes up in the computer and they wont fill it . IT just seems like a huge mess from trying to run the show and that to me isnt always the way to go . Doesnt matter how you got addicted you did and need a bigger program like a doctor and aftercare. Im sorry to say this and please dont take it as being mean but we dont always know everything .
Welcome and congratulations on your decision and admission to being dependant on your meds.... Huge step for you!
(Keep in mind I used the word dependant not addicted!) :-)
As far as your sub regiment is concerned... I am not going to pass judgement on your for your decision, but I will add some very important info about sub and my own experiences.
First I would like to say that Buprenorphine (Suboxone) Is VERY powerful stuff you are dealing with. When I inducted on sub, I was taking over 500mgs of methadone, and 60-80 Vics a day. I was started on 6mgs daily and that was way too much. You bring up a good point in that everyone is different, this was just my experience.
I was on sub for three months before deciding to taper, and I am now at 1mg and decreasing. The wd's are not as bad as some of the other devils out there, but they are a real B**** none the less.
Also sub does more than just maks wd's and make detox easier. The reason Ideal times for sub use are 3-6 months is that Suboxone repairs our bodies natural endorphin system, and gets us to produce our own natural morphine (Endorphins) again. When we put foreign opiates into our bodies for long periods of time, our endorphin production decreases because our bodies think "Why should I make this stuff when its already being given to me."
We also have receptors in our brains (Picture holes) that opiates and endorphins fill. When these "holes" are filled, we get pain relief and euphoria. Using foreign opiates for long periods of time creates more of these "Holes" to be fille.
So when we stop taking our drugs, two things happen.
#1 Our natural endorphin production is barely working to pump out enough endorphins for what we needed BEFORE our drug use.
#2 We now have so so many more holes to fill.
Since endorphins make us feel good, happy, allow us to sleep, regulates all types of body systems, when we have all those empty receptors "The holes" we feel lousy and experience withdrawal.
Suboxone is like a shovel and a workers union....
It helps fill all those extra holes we created over time, and the workers union comes in and motivates that "Endorphin factory" to start producing again.
The longer you are on suboxone, the more repair is done, and ultimately re routes your chemical make up of the brain.
Now keep this in mind, just because you were only dependant on Lortabs, not addicted, long term use has still effected your Endorphin system the same way. If after stopping sub you feel several months of Post acute withdrawal, you probablly didnt give your brain enough time to heal.
I do agree with you in the fact that is some BS that you were not remotely educated about such an important medication before handing you a script. There is a lot of misconception about Buprenorphin and its efficacy.
There is another forum out there on the web that is tailored to Buprenorphine treatment and can give you just loads of information about short and long term suboxone treatment. If you would like, ovt message me on this site and I can give you the link. you may have been there already before.
I wish you the best of luck with your detox. Happy to hear you are no longer in pain!!! Please keep up the positive attitude you have goin, and keep us posted on your success!!! :-) :-) :-)
I really dont think anyone is trying to be negative at all .They just want to make sure you are informed about the meds you are taking .Sub can be a great tool but like any drug it can be dangerous.I hope everything goes smoothly
That is true tho that u can not really compare as u do not feel the full effect of the sub since it is an antagonist...but the strength of the narcotic is as strong as the table suggests..it is not exactly the same as taking a bunch of lortab tho...altho 75 mg of hydro a day does not seem to qualify for a sub detox to most..everyone is different and the sub is ur plan.....u could skip the wds with probably 1 mg a day or 1 mg twice a day at the most..that is a relatively low dose of hydro u were using.....the physical wds if done without the sub from that dose would have been over in 4-5 days/a week tops if u are in poor health.. so if u use the sub for a 7-10 days u would be covering the wds as the sub will remain in ur system for days after u stop taking it....if u stay at 1 mg a day for 7-10 days, u would not have to taper and u could just stop the sub..be safe doing this without your doctor....and be careful with the sub but i am sure u have been warned enuf about that already...
Buprenorphine has an INCREDIBLY long half-life almost 72 hours. So in laymen terms it your took 1 mg of buprenorphine monday morning Around thursday you could still have .5mg of bupe in your bloodstream.
It is due to this that most people dont feel any wd's after a decrease until 3-4 days later.
Most of us are used to short acting opiates that produce wd's in 12 hours, I have seen many people decrease on lets say monday morning feel good tuesday morning, decrease again, and again wednesday, and by Friday they cant understand why they are having such sever wd's.
I am not going to scroll up and find who it was that suggested that I take half a pill... they said I would surprised at the fact that taking just half would feel like I still took a whole one.
I did exactly that yesterday. I was able to cut an entire pill from my regimen yesterday. I suppose the thing that I'm just realizing for the first time is the fact that the pill has what you all are calling a "half life".... so when the time comes to "jump off" .. realistically, I probably won't feel any ill effects until 3 or 4 days later. That is a bit of an eye opener. But with my husband in control of the pills, I am unable to abuse them. Even if I wanted to. Which I don't. I want more than anything to not have this part of my life rule the rest of my life. It's been too long that I've dealt with poor health. Now that my health has been restored (as far as the kidney problems) this is the last "issue" I'm dealing with it. Its strange in way too because the kidney stones I had absolutely no control over. At least with this, I am in control. My husband went to work yesterday and left the amount of pills we had discussed I needed for the day, with the understanding that when he arrived home, before bedtime, I would need another pill. Well, when he left for work, thats when I got online and began to read all the responses to this post I started. I saw the post which I mentioned in my opening line of this update and decided that I would do as suggested. Low and behold, when my husband came home from work and as we neared going to bed for the night, he asked me if he needed to go to the safe and retrieve a pill for me. I told him no because I had half of one left and so far I was comfortable. I only would have taken one if I was miserable.
The fact that I am up against being miserable with wd in a few days with my reductions was something that hadn't "clicked" yet with me. Even with all the writings from all of you who are so knowledgeable about this drug. But it's clicking now. I guess the only thing I can say is that I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. For me, this is not about getting high, or escaping. It's because I'm Dependant. My goal is to just be comfy while I get off the meds. I have detoxed before with nothing and was so ill that I decided that to slowly ween myself off the meds was much better than being ill for a week.
Anyway, I've said all this before. Don't want to sound like a broken record. If I go off of what has been said here, then I probably will feel like **** in a couple of days. Thats a little worrisome. But again, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.
I am still optimistic that I am winning this battle. If I had gone by what the doc had wanted me to do, I'd be taking 4 times the amount of Sub that I am now. So for me, just realizing that HE did not know what was best for me, that's a big win in my book. Another thing, I would be doing this detox for much longer had I left it up to him.
As far as the "negative" comment I made..... when there is response after response where people are telling you that you are totally uninformed and blah blah blah... it FEELS negative.
My thought process, as I read more of the posts..... is that today I have ONE pill set out (and my husband is supposed to get another one for me later on this evening for bed time) I have already cut it in half and taken the half of the pill. I am going to try and only take the other half today. No additional pills. It does worry me a bit that I might feel horrible in a few days. But if that happens, we'll take another half a pill at the time of the discomfort.
Y'all have been great with your input. I will admit, some of you come off a bit harsh... however, I am smart enough to realize that it's only because YOU'VE BEEN THERE and done it already. I was not educated on a few things regarding this drug... until I came here. But for me, the fact that I am AWARE it was time to stop taking pain meds is a victory in itself. I don't want to fill my body with pain meds when I am NOT in pain anymore.
I will love to be able to say , "I told you so.." hee hee... oh brother, sounds like 3rd graders huh? But seriously, part of me wants to be able to show that it CAN be done my way with success. I do feel like NOW, I have all the info... everyone has given me so much information it's amazing. I'm sure there are bits and pieces that haven't been mentioned, but for the most part, I now have enough info to know what to expect. The only thing I really haven't heard is WHAT the wd will be like from the sub. If I jump off at .5 what will they be like? Say I was to take .5 every other day for a couple of days... then jump off... what sort of difference will that make with the wd? If the half life is that great, wouldn't it be better, once you are down to that small of an amount.... to say, take the drug every 3rd day? It seems like this would be the way to go. Another thing... if I could go for say 3 days (starting today) without any meds... and wait until the wds hit... then only take say 1 mg to ease the discomfort, wouldn't that be a smart way to go? Then, later, rinse repeat?? Continue doing that for a week ??? then after a week, when the wd come, cut that 1 mg down to .5 mg??
The fact is this..... I have been comfortable throughout this whole process. I can handle a little discomfort, but I don't want to be sick.
Ok, I'm running at the mouth. Enough.
Thanks again to EVERYONE who's given their input and posted all the important information.
Glad to hear things are going smoothly for you. You SO have the right mindset about worrying about the wd's when they come! Great way to think.
I have been tapering off the sub for a few weeks now, and am currently experienceing sub wd's. I wont lie to you and say that they are a breeze, but I can PROMISE you they will not be a fraction of the wd's from full opiate agonist wd.
Heres something that might lift your spirits and make wd not so scary.
I have been tapering pretty big jumps for the last month and a half. And my wd's have never caused me to miss a day at work unlik the methadone, morphine, and demerol I detoxed from. I know you are thinking "Big deal, he didnt miss a day of work" But...
I am an International Flight attendant working for a major charter carrier that transports the military to airbases around the world. As a matter of speaking this email is coming to you from Budapest, Hungary.
My work hours are long most of the time from19-26 hour work days. I work in a cramped enviroment 32,000 feet in the air under huge amounts of pressure. I fly through many time zones a day, and yesterday went from Being in Iceland at 8am where it was 42 degrees to Kuwait at 10pm where it was 119 degrees. My sleep schedule is whacked, I dont eat regular meals, and I live out of a suitcase.
Under those conditions, my wd has never affected my work performance, and many of my crew have no idea about my past of drug abuse or that I am currently detoxing.
My symptoms are a bit of insomnia here and there, nothing benadryl doesnt knock out of the water, some very minor crawly skin, that is usually relieved by stretching, and thats about it. After I decrease my dose about four days later I get some diarreah which one dose of immodium makes unnoticeable. The wd's are VERY VERY mild, and nothing to B**** about! And like I said, I can **** and moan with the best of em! :-)
As far as skipping days, you need to do what you think is best for you! You sound like you have a solid plan that you are sticking to, and with your motivation and the support of your husband I believe you are going to make it. My personal opinon is I would keep taking your meds daily and just going lower and lower and lower until you run out and at are at a low dose such as .5mg.
The reason I suggest this is the fact of that damn long half life of suboxone. If you took it every three days, you would begin to go into wd, and then take some sub to stop it, three days later the same cycle. Just an opinion but why let yourself go into wd just to take sub to stop it and start again in a few days. You know your body better than anyone, and if that is what your gut is saying, go for it.
I guess ultimately you only have a certain amount of medicine to last you, and from what it sounds like you wont be able to get more. So at some point you are going to have to stop taking it all together. I think it would be easier on your body if you continued taking the lowest dose that is working for you, counting your pills, making a taper regiment and stickin to it. That way your body has wd symptoms once and your done. The other thing is your not teasing those receptors with a little bit of sub every few days, and will give your endorphin system some more time to heal and repair. Just a thought! :-)
Everyone is different but from what it sounds like I really dont believe you will be sick. Just some discomfort, and it sounds like you are prepared and ready for that. That alone will make things on you a lot easier.
Keep us posted on how you are doing! By the way, Are you taking the 8mg pills or the 2mg pills, what is your total daily dosage you have been taking, and how many pills do you have left? This info may help us give you more insight.
Henry wrote "I have been tapering pretty big jumps for the last month and a half. And my wd's have never caused me to miss a day at work unlike the methadone, morphine, and demerol I detoxed from. I know you are thinking "Big deal, he didnt miss a day of work" But... "
I do think that is a HUGE deal actually. Your email made me feel so awesome. Thanks so much for all the great information and sharing some of your experiences with me.
Right now... I have disregarded what the docs wanted me to take. They wanted me to take 12 mg a day. I am proud to say that for the last 2 days, I have only taken 1 pill each of those days. The pills are 2 mg each. When I started, on Monday. The doc gave me 1 pill that was 8 mg. It about knocked me out. We talked about what HIS plan was for me and how he wanted me to attend NA meetings and all this other stuff. And so when my husband and I went to get the script filled, thats when he suggested we just take the pills home and do it our way. So we did that. I took no more pills that day and was comfy all night. The next day, I was able to only take 3 pills. Wednesday, I took just 2 pills. Same with Thursday. Friday and Saturday I was able to break the ONE pill in half both days and take one half in the morning and the other half at night. I am still very comfy and have been sleeping really good. I wake up, typically around 2 or 2:30 and get up for a drink of water or juice and then get back into bed and stare at the tube for about 30 minutes before going back to sleep. However, this isn't something new. I actually have not had a full nights sleep since I started taking the pain meds almost a year ago. But, on the pain meds, I would wake several times a night with that same routine happening. It's pretty nice that I am now only waking once.
The RX was for 100 pills. So my husband has in his possession 100, 2mg tablets. However, I am not planning on taking all those pills. My goal is to be totally done with this detox in 2 weeks from today. That's at the worst case scenario. Ideally, I would like to be done a week from today. I would also like to think that since I'm only taking 2 mg a day right now, that process should be do-able.
It's things like this (this is from a post above)
YEA ive always tried to do things my way too, cause my body wanted the drug and that was that. i too started taking lortab due to a medical situation and six years later im doing things completely out of character to obtain my drug. ive taken other peoples meds. lied to doctors and on and on. in some of the situations i didn't get caught but i was always left with the guilt of not doing the right thing. mind you, some situations i did get caught and now im being forced to do something about my addiction. im leaving for in patient treatment in one week and its really a result of doing things MY WAY. I see your point................i never wanted anyone handing out my drugs either, never wanted people to spoil my plans. now im face to face with life doing things others way or death.
that really grate on me. It seems as though this sort of situation is what I am automatically being lumped into. I have never lied to a doctor to get more of my pain meds. I haven't taken other peoples meds. I haven't had to do anything out of character to get my pain pills. And I hate to repeat myself, but the moment my pain was gone, I called my doctor to inform her and find out what sort of plan my insurance company had to get me off the pain meds I had needed. I suppose too, the more I try and explain "my situation", the more I sound like I'm in denial or that I'm trying to make excuses. The bottom line is this, I know what took place and I know I am not in danger of returning to pain meds. The thought of taking a pain pill when I don't have any pain seems a little more than silly to me. When I was ill, and taking the pain meds, all I did was lay in bed. Sleepy and sloppy. Who wants to do that? I am so excited about the fact that my life is ALMOST back to normal. Baseball games with my kids, church with my family, gardening, just being able to do every day tasks (like going to the grocery store) that I have been unable to do because of the stents and the pain. Even with all the meds I was on when I was ill, it didn't take ALL the pain away, so laying in bed was my life. For nearly a year all I did was lay in bed. For the last 2 weeks I've been doing laundry, driving my son to preschool (I hadn't driven a car in 6 months up until 2 weeks ago, my husband drove me everywhere.) Going out to dinner, actually cooking dinner, which I adore doing, having friends over. I finally have my life back. Almost. Finally getting off the sub will be me closing this chapter of my life once and for all. I have no desire to take pain meds once I am off this. In fact, as I said above in one of my posts... when I finish with the detox, I am taking the remainder of the pills (because I certainly will not take all 100 pills) back to my regular care physician.
Anyway Henry... thanks again for the great post. There have been 3 or 4 people who have really helped with providing information to me and they have also just seemed to "get me" and you've been one of those people. I hope the info I have provided you with will help you to further assess my detox plan. I am now done with week one. The best part about all of this is that my detox has been totally comfortable. I have never felt more positive about anything in my life. I can deal with a bit of diarrhea. The insomnia thing... my husband and I already discussed that... he's promised me that if I can't sleep, he'll make a pot of coffee and stay up with me and watch chick flicks. How cool is that??? Well for me, it's cool. For him, not so cool. But isn't that awesome support? I feel so blessed. I have so many people surrounding me that are supporting me and praying for me. They are ready, just like me, for me to start living again. I've been sick far too long. And there was nothing I could do about it. Oh they tried. They changed my diet a bunch of times thinking the stones were caused from too much calcium or too much red meat. Nothing worked. I just kept getting stones. My kidneys are now STONE FREE and infection free. The first time in almost a year.
Thanks again Henry. And be safe while your in Hungary
Whoa 100 pills....You really gotta be careful...Dont let your mind think about the 100 pills or you will keep finding some reason to prolong the plan....Trust me there is no need for anything close to 100 pills to taper off of opiates.
I cant say it enough as i have a lot of history with Subuone/subutex and so do my friends and co-workers....Dont take em for to long they will really really get ahold of you down to the bone...I have heard of people using percs and vics to get off Suboxone...
Sounds like your gonna be fine (with hubbys help and all)....But try to forget about the 100 pills....And remeber "Less is more"
It is true that doctor's do really not know how to prescribe this drug in many cases...they overprescribe...I saw an 8 hour online course that will allow a doctor to prescribe sub..without having an instructor or ever seeing an addict!...and when those online courses say 8 hours, they are usually less than 4 hours in reality as i have taken courses on there for my specialty degree.....Just because MD is behind their name does not mean they know a whole heck of alot about medications..I am a nurse and I see this everyday....If i really want to know about a drug, I google it or ask a pharmacist...but I am lucky to have a medical background which enables me to understand what i read...Most of what doctors know about drugs, they learn from sales reps...and a sales rep is trying to increase sales of his/her drug...and then there are some docs who take the time to educated themselves on drugs...this is why there are alot of docs out there who do not know trams are addicting!...my friend was also prescribed a high dose of sub which made her sick for 3 days until it wore off....3 days is what it took so the half life is fairly long.....for pill poppers, doses just really do not need to be so high in most cases....methadone users or heroin addicts etc would require higher doses...or if u were taking tons of pill each day....best to educate urself on drugs...google them before u take them or talk to ur pharmacist for all drugs/not just sub
But try to forget about the 100 pills....And remember "Less is more"
I feel like you didn't even read my entire post. It says clearly in it that my plan is to be off the meds in 2 weeks time. It also says that I am taking ONE pill a day. Each pill is 2 mg. I go on further to say that once I'm done with the detox, that the remainder of the pills will go back to my regular care physician to dispose of.
I don't think of the amount I have in the safe. I could care less. The question was asked to me how many I had. I actually now have 90. But on Tuesday, I'm cutting out a half of a pill. So for the next couple of days, I will be taking just a half a pill. If my calculations are correct, by the time I am finished with my detox, I will have a total of 84 pills left. If my detox goes as planned, with the calculations that I just reconfigured, I will jump off a week from Friday, 8/8/08 will be the last day that I take .25mg of the Sub.
The amount of the pills I have is irrelevant to ME. It was just something that was asked by another poster. He wanted to know how many the script was for. I knew it when the script was written, it was way to many. And the fact that I will have 84 pills left just shows how WRONG the doctor was in HIS calculations for my detox plan.
I know when I go to see my regular care doc to return the unused portion, I plan on telling her exactly what I've learned throughout this whole process. As I've said before, we have a great relationship and I know that she will research what I've told her. She will see that what this doctor is doing at the detox clinic (we have kaiser, and for people who don't have kaiser in their states, you have no idea how this crazy insurance works) with Kaiser's name on it, is not promoting proper health. Who knows, this might even be the catalyst for Kaiser doctors to be required to have other certifications before being able to write a script for this drug. All I know is that this doctor who was supposedly an addiction specialist knows jack about this drug or how much of it should be prescribed. He wrote a script for me that should have been written for someone who had a very long tapper plan to work through. Not someone who should be done with their tapper plan in less than 21 days.
I'm off for now. Be back tomorrow. I hope everyone has a very blessed Sunday.
well i was taking lortab 10s and had a friend that was rx to suboxone. he gave them to me and i started to abuse them. dumb dumb dumb. be careful in whatever decision u make. no one else can tell u what to do. i def now dont believe in subing one drug for another. i did taper of with 2 subs left only took 1/4 everyday for 8 days. and have been clean for 7 days so good luck to u!
No doctors do not know how much of this stuff to prescribe. The first time I went down the road of addiction I had a 40mg a day lortab habit. It was also due to medical reasons. I ran out one day and was so sick. I called the doctor and was told I was in w/d. At this point I was not educated at all about drug addiction"dependancy" which ever one you want to call it and I made an appointment with a sub doctor. He was very nice and prescribed me 6mg a day of sub for a 40mg hydro habit. I didn't know better. I was nodding off in meetings and driving. I quickly lowered the dose over a weeks time and jumped. The w/d's were terrible. It wasn't so much physical it was the malaise, the anxiety and depression. I was clean a little over a month and went back on them to get some relief. Fast forward a year later and now I was taking 100mg a day of lortab. I knew the danger of sub so I did a long slow taper and jumped off the lortab the w/d's were much less. This is my experience and I know everyone is different but doctors are way over prescribing on dose for this medicine.
You are indeed correct on the over prescribing of Buprenorphine. A lot of the doctors that prescribe sub have never dealt with addicts, felt the pain of addiction, or ever taken sub a day in their life.
I fly for a living now, but before I started flying I had just finished my second year of medical school. I will be going back to finish, and you damn well better believe that I will be Certified to prescribe sub. I also want to specialize in Pain management/Anesthesiology for persons with addiction. No one seems to have a clue about how to treat an addict in pain!
You are right on with your plan. No matter what anyone tells you, if it is working, go with it. Like I said before you have an amazing support structure, and a backup plan. This has all been well thought out. You are an excellent example of a person who is drug dependant. You no more resemble an addict than the pope!
Please tell your husband how amazing he is for helping you through this! I give him some major props!
Im glad I could help you out! I will definitly have you and your husband in my thoughts on the 8th! Just keep us updated!
Love ... love ... love you. Thanks so much for your support. Its nice to have someone get me.
And yes, your right... my husband is amazing. That's obvious isn't it??? He married ME didn't he? Pffft.
and jumped off the lortab the w/d's were much less
It's this sort of thing that scares me to death. Because what does that say about me?? I couldn't get off the lortab. I couldn't stand the physical sickness that came with it. It seems that half the people here have a better experience with the Sub with detoxing and the other half have better experiences with their doc in regards to their detox. I just know that if I had been withdrawing from the lortab this entire week. I would have been vomiting, pooping (if that's what you call it... more like water coming out of that end) (sorry for being so graphic) sweats, chills and just all around horrible body aches. While I've had a bit of restlessness, it's been NOTHING like what I would have dealt with doing a reduction with the lortab. I guess that's where the "every person is different" comes in. I also know that I have a huge tolerance for pain meds. The last time I went into the ER for the stones... the doc was tripping out at the amount of dillaudid he gave me and it basically had no affect. I was writhing (sp?) in pain. He told me the only reason he felt comfortable giving me more pain medication was the fact that my blood pressure was still high and my heart rate was still strong. He told me that most people, given that amount of the pain medication, would have been sleeping if not within the first 5 minutes, not too much longer after that.
How cool is it to know that someone who has gone through this S H I T will be a doctor one day and HONESTLY be able to assist others. Going through all this has certainly made me consider going into the rehabilitation field. I have been doing some research on becoming a C.A.S - certified addiction specialist. I just might be that 1% of people who are drug dependent. I cannot be the only person who has run into the scrutiny and patronizing behavior that I have been subjected to while trying to get off the meds. Its more than frustrating when everyone looks at you with that smirk and the obligatory nod.. you can almost HEAR what they are thinking... "yea, yea.... You and every other person who's sat in that chair across from me." I swear, it's enough to make you want to slap the jerk across the face. But as a good Christian woman........ well, that would be totally unacceptable. I can dream can't I? :o) Kidding (sort of )
Anyway, your input has been like this reinforcement for me. Along with my husband, your words and support have meant so much. I can't thank you enough. If your ever in California... we're cooking you dinner.
I have been on sub almost since it has been approved by the FDA - year 2004 - I remember having my first pill in August of that year and here we are 4 yrs later - stuck at 4mg. I never planned that! Doc says I can stay on it for life. (as long as I pay him for life!) However the w/d are so hard on me. I should have stayed on my original DOC - codeine, vicodin; as I was being "cut off" from the pharmacy and kind of forced myself to try sub. Never missed ONE day in 4 years. I was able to quit codeine several time -cold turkey - to have my kids. But not this. Hopefully this is more of an insentive....good luck!
Jackie... I am aware y'all come in different shapes and sizes. And I feel horrible that your in the position you are in. My thoughts and prayers are with you and I hope nothing but success for you.
I think the main thing about all the back and forth talk that we all need to really realize is that everyone is different. I want to emphasize that. Because for ME, the lortab was tough tough tough. I didn't like feeling sick. Or pooping all the time. By the time I finally was done with the detox, I couldn't even sit on my poor rear end.
I had another very successful night. Although, my sleeplessness continues. But it isn't restless... it's just I'm awake. Hello world. So, like I said above, I get some juice or water and get back in bed and normally fall back to sleep within 30 minutes.
It is 11:30 am right now... and so far, I have not taken my half a pill. I am going to try my darnedest to go the remainder of the day without taking it. I want to only take 1/2 a pill total today. I will take that before I go to bed tonight. At least that's what I'm shooting for. So far, I feel fine. And I have done a drastic taper since a week ago. A week ago today I took a total of 8 mg. As of yesterday, I am down to just 2. So hopefully, my light at the end of the tunnel is really almost here.
To Cheerios.... Look girl.... since I've been taking this drug, the sub... I see a total difference in the way I feel compared to the lortab. I want to commend you on your success. I feel more clear headed and much more active and alive compared to how I felt when on lortab. Have you tried to cut your pill in half and take half in the morning... then half in the afternoon and then another half at night? You would be cutting a bit out then... maybe even then you could cut out the afternoon 1/2 a pill??? Who knows.
But I will say this... if I was made to have to chose either the lortab or the sub... I would take the sub. First of all, I would get sick so quickly while I was taking the lortab... if I didn't get it in my system... I felt it. I have been able to taper from the sub much easier. At the risk of repeating what someone else said up above... they suggested to me that I take 1/2 a pill and said that I would be surprised at how it FELT like I was taking a whole pill. They were right. I think Coolio said it.
I am supported by great people who are routing for me so much. I am just ready to have my life back. It just so happened that I had to fight to get it back. That's ok... I'm not too old to back down from a good fight ;o) Especially when it's something so important.
To all who are following this... I'm having another good day and I continue to feel very positive about getting off the meds completely by 8/8/08
Thank you all for your support, I made a promise to myself and every suffereing addict and their families out there that I will finish med school, and give back what was given to me.
Its funny how coolio wrote that they find themselves wanting to check on you after work Kecia. I am in the same boat! I just got back to my hotel in Budapest from a flight to Kuwait and the first thing I did was jump on my laptop! Hell Im still in uniform! lol
It just shows how we all know what a struggle this damn disease is and the pain and anguish we all go through. Theres a lot of crazy **** goin on in this world, a lot of hating, and fighting, but I see a group of people that are coming together here to help one another.
Kecia, everything you are going through now is going to help someone else in the future, just as we all are helping you. Its kind of like an addiction help chain letter! :-P Very very kewl.
To everyone out there, hang in there, you all deserve it!
I am aware y'all come in different shapes and sizes
Who would Y'all be? Because last time I checked we were here because we are and were addicted and you were also right? you are now on sub to get off Lortab? Im just confused by your way of thinking and seeing thats all . Alot of us started taking them for medical reasons once your hooked your hooked and If you wernt you wouldnt be on the sub correct?
I was commenting on what someone else said when I wrote
I am aware y'all come in different shapes and sizes
It was another persons verbiage, not mine. I was only stating that I am aware of the fact that people, not just addicts... come in all shapes and sizes.
I also don't think you've read every single post by me. Part of me doesn't want to dignify your comment... but part of it puts me on the defensive. I know many of the folks here started taking pain meds for medical reasons. What I guess is important to me is the fact that the minute my pain was gone, I contacted my doctor about getting off the meds. I never used the medication for ANY other purpose other than my pain. But obviously, after taking the pain meds for nearly a year...... my body was dependent on them. Quitting, without some sort of help, would have been total agony and put me through a great deal of suffering. I opted to not go through that. So yes, I am hooked. Physically, I am. But mentally, no. I am more than anxious to have a comfortable detox and be off the sub within the next week, maybe 2. And it's ok that you are confused. Because the truth is that a lot of what people say here confuses me. You can say what you want, but I am not an addict. Not in the sense that I see what others are talking about. I don't get a lot of the mentality. I had a brother who was addicted to free basing cocaine. That was 22 years ago. He's been sober for that long. But I remember the anguish he put our family through when he lied and stole from parents. I never understood why something could get a hold of person that way. But I did learn how to forgive him and also know that it was the drug and not my brother that was doing those things. I never lied to get my meds, never took pills that belonged to another person, and I didn't ever doctor shop... is that what its called? When you go from doctor to doctor so you can get your meds? At the risk of being redundant and repeating myself, I will say agin... the moment my pain was gone, I picked up the phone and contacted my doctor to get a plan together to get off the meds. I have never abused the drug. Never. I took it strictly for my pain.
To Henry and Coolio
Another day under my belt. I'm so excited. I have the same desire as you both too... I wake up and get online and see if ether of you... and JRG as well... have dropped me a line. Another member, Catt, has been totally supportive and helpful with private messages... she and I started on a rocky path, but have come to see each others point of view and it's great to now have her on the same page with me and she too, is routing for me.
So today, I've only taken .25 mg. Whoa. I can't believe I've managed to reduce so quickly and so comfortably. Someone said that for the sleep issues, I might try benedryl. I went to the drug store today and will try that tonight. We'll see how that works.
While I originally said that my jump off date was 8/8/08, I am honestly thinking that I may even be able to do it sooner than that.
So anyway.... we're going on day number 8 tomorrow. What is so bizarre too is the fact that I am living life again. I basically layed in bed for almost a year. My pain was that great. Today, I managed to go to the movies with my son and I actually DROVE there as well. My husband has been driving me everywhere for the last year. He's been burdened with the running of this household. All laundry, cooking, shopping... everything I can't tell you how excited HE is that he is getting his wife back. He almost cried when he got home today and I told him we went to the show. I haven't been able to do anything like that for much to long.
Thanks again to those of you who are routing for me. I feel like I have this whole other family who is supporting me. It's freakin amazing. And like you Henry, I hope to be able to give back after I get through this. It probably would be my second biggest gift.. obviously, my kids are the biggest gift.
I may come back before bedtime... but if not, you know I'll be here tomorrow with my update.
I've been reading your thread and just want to commend you for your dedication and determination. Your hubby is one AWESOME guy! Wow!
Also...I know what you're saying...and I agree with you that there IS a difference between physical "dependence" and "addiction". People who are "addicted" have a rough mental road (not that there isn't always a mental aspect d/cing opiates) as well....b/c there is a whole other lifestyle that goes with that...the planning, pill counting....constantly thinking and wondering where the next supply is coming from...doing things totally out of character to obtain the DOC at all cost...taking 10 instead of 1 or 2 as prescribed...and on and on. SURE there is a difference.
Where you are now...coming off the opiates....you are in a very similar boat....and I just have observed some defensiveness on both YOUR part in trying to clarify that you are not an "addict" by definition (and can understand why that is important to you to convey)..and yet other people feel defensive as if somehow you stating that is some sort of put down to those that ARE addicted. Which, of course...it surely is not. Just a lot of raw feelings.
The main thing is that everyone learns from everyone else...and every tiny accomplishment should be celebrated...no matter WHAT the circumstances are that brought any person here....and that is what this thread seems to be about...it is great.
Best of luck to you in your journey....I think you are going to be very successful....you have offered hope to a lot of people...as well have learned so much yourself as well. If I were you...when you finish your plan..I would take your remaining pills back to the detox doc and tell him perhaps he needs to learn a bit more about Sub and how to treat people appropriately. ANYTHING in the medical field.....as a rule...you start out MINIMAL and work your way up....not the other way around. A doc wouldn't cut a patient's arm off for a splinter in the pinky finger...same with meds....minimalistic is the rule.. The sub doc is just handing out pills like it is Trick ir Treat, and that is so sad.
observed some defensiveness on both YOUR part in trying to clarify that you are not an "addict" by definition
Guilty as charged. I suppose I should apologize. Yep, I have had the mechanism grab hold of me often when reading some of the posts here. It really is very hard for me to not get defensive.
That being said...... I want to stress what I'm about to say. I do NOT want anyone to think that I feel as though I am better than anyone else here. Absolutely not. Please please don't think that I am putting anyone down for their illness. My heart goes out to all of you that are struggling. I think about what I am going through and I can't imagine what it would be like to not have a support system ... and then the other thing I think about that makes me so sad is the fact that this for me is only physical. I can't imagine what people go through when you've got the mental part of it as well. You all have it so much tougher than I do. Truth be told, I don't know if I would be as strong as some of you. I commend you all so much for your bravery. Truly I do.
The part you wrote about taking the pills back to the detox doc... if you read some of the postings above, I say just that. The thing that really got to me is the fact that there is TRULY a percentage of people who are like me. Not everyone needs to do meetings and be treated like they are lying and conniving to get what they want. It was more than insulting. If it was up to this doctor, he would have me doing a long slow taper lasting 4 MONTHS. Thats so ridiculous. The fact that after 21 days your now addicted to the sub, just makes this plan absurd. Although I don't plan on taking the pills to the detox doc. I plan on taking them to MY personal care physician who's been treating me for the last 6 years. She and I have a mutual respect and trust for one another. She will know I'm pulling NO punches with her. I will let HER deal with the detox doc. I don't know if you know about Kaiser Insurance... but it's all sort of incestuous. I want her to know what I've learned on this site and let her come to her own conclusions about how HE over prescribed the meds to me and how his plan was, to me, a sort of mal practice. He would have had me hooked on another drug all together had I done it his way. I thank God daily that I was smart enough to realize what he was saying to me didn't make sense and that's why I bailed.
So far today, I've tapered to .5 mg. Whooo hooo. Originally I had planned to go until 8/8 before jumping. But my goal now is this Friday. I actually think I can do it. I've had day after day of being comfortable and really, can't believe how uncomplicated it's been for me. At the risk of sounding trite, I'll say it's been easy. Now don't anyone send hate mail ... kidding.... now that I've put my foot in my mouth, I'll probably have the worst day of the detox tomorrow.... what do they call that??? Murphy's law?
Anyway, your right, I did get defensive. And I shouldn't have. It stems from frustration as well. I do apologize. Nothing uglier and nothing more NON PRODUCTIVE than that.
Take care all. I have looked forward to reading this post every day. I have learned so much from everyone. And there is only pure sincerity in my heart when I say that I wish everyone who is suffering, peace and comfort on their road to a successful recovery.
I can say that Buprenex is very different and that it does not appear you really realize this. I would feel better if you had really been able to get pratical info, before doing your detox. You should get off ASAP, and you may make it. Do not underestimate the potency of this drug, and taken on a as needed basis is not going to be accurate for you to do. Buprenex has a half life and each dose adds to the previous dose for 5 to 7 days. So hope you do well. Why really does it matter if you do it Kaisers way, it is humilating etc, but your goals is to get well. I am concerned your fighting this in the way addicts do, we just do it, we all do. It will just take more time and more tries possibly. Learning curve here, and of course relapse is part of the disease as well. You may well relapse, and your current view is not going to be helpfull to you in staying sober.
With Love, God Bless your Detox
You obviously have not read all of my posts. The fact that the doctor wanted me to take 4 to 6, 2 mg tablets a day and i am now only taking 1/4 of a tablet shows that MY way is better than Kaisers.
It irritates me more than I can say to read something like you wrote above when you obviously did not read ALL of my posts.
My plan is to be off of this drug ... here I go again... at the very latest, 8/8/08, but ideally, by this Friday. So when you say, I should get off asap... when I've clearly stated in the post above yours... that's what I intend to do... and as far as relapse goes... part of me doesn't even want to repeat it, but I'm going to... I won't relapse. My pain is gone. No need for the pills. I took the pills only to control my pain. The minute the pain was gone, I looked into getting off of them.
I am rather annoyed ... and at this point, don't care if I get hate posts because of what I'm about to say... at being told I'm uneducated... not informed... blah blah blah. I can say this much, I have surely gotten a HEALTHY dose from many of the posts. NOT EVERYONE IS AN ADDICT in the way some of you are categorizing me ... Not everyone abuses the medication they were prescribed. I never abused my medication. NEVER. I took it when I needed it due to kidney stones and infection. Stop assuming that everyone that comes here is in the same boat that your in... that sounded wrong... I'm just frustrated right now... Some people are actually JUST DRUG DEPENDENT...
From what I have read, and maybe I read it wrong... but isn't buprenex the injection of Buprenorphine?? They seem to be different but I'm not quite able to distinguish what the differences are. Anyway...
Enough said. Every person's situation is different, and there can be exceptions to every rule.
I first must say and I hope you know this already but Kecia is correct. Buprenex is VERY different than Suboxone. Granted it is still Buprenorphine, However it is the injectable form and is VERY potent. The maximum strength you can get buprenex is 0.3mg. It crosses the blood brain barrier much faster than oral buprenorphine.
There were many a times I could not get any demerol, or fentanyl and I was resorted to using buprenex. And got way loaded off it. ONE 0.3mg ampule is what I would use and since starting Suboxone I have NEVER even gotten the slightest buzz, even when I inducted and my first and only high dose was 32mg. 0.3 to 32 Interesting stuff right?!?!? :-) And please dont tell me I didnt get high with sub because of the naloxone in it..... We all know how this medicine works.
I dont want to get your thread all side tracked here, so back to you! :-) You are doin awesome. Friday..... WOW! How cool is that?!?!?! Just know youve got some crazy guy in Hungary on your side! :-)
I have read every single post (some twice just to make sure I was reading right)
I hate to say this because i am a very positive person.. I had severe medical issues.
30 operations in 4 years, double mastectomy, reconstructive surgery, hystorectomy
and ect..ect..... They damaged my back during these operations and I was on hydrocodone
for over 6 years..I knew all about DR's for pain management. The most they RX for
real pain is 5 10mg pills a day (more than that is not right) if you need more than that they
change to morphine or other drugs.
Dear hate kidney,
At first you said that the DR black listed you, than you said in another post
"that's when he suggested that we take the pills home and do it our way" That's a change
from when he wanted you to go to clinic everyday..I am not sure Which is correct ?
Yes I am an addict, yes i took the pills for real pain.. I was on 40 10mg pills a day and when
I detoxed with suboxone I was only on 6mgs a day. For the habit you where on with the lortab you really did not need the suboxone. Yes I hope you do great but let me warn you
the detox from suboxone are HE**, and than some..At this point you should be taking maybe a quarter of a pill a day (no More)
I too wanted to do things my way, and it did not work so great. Are I am sorry you sound like you are not very educated on these drugs. I am also on pain management for the time being with suboxone and only take 4mgs a day (and that's for a person that was on morphine). Be careful, and I do suggest NA meetings. Also The most Suboxone I am ever
RXed is 64 tabs for a month, what DR in their right mind would RX a 100 pills to a new addict ? That's just insane..That DR should lose his license.
Good Luck, please do not take this the wrong way but you sound just like and addict.
Just about the time you start to sound like you get it , you turn right around and sound like you know it all and if this is your first DEPENDANT go round YOU DONT The way it reads is umm well I took them for pain and didnt do anything wrong to get them so im better than you all. I dont need anyone like you to look down upon me I do it enough for myself =) And yes I have read your posts the same thing over and over again , You dont seem to care that you are black listed now because you dont seem to think that you will EVER have a medical problem again that will make you take a narcotic. Its not that easy. Second I took my meds as the doctor said for three years and if I would have been here I would have been addicted like everyone else no different. For one second dont look at the word Addict look at Addicted!
""that's when he suggested that we take the pills home and do it our way"
I am referring to my husband. That is when MY HUSBAND SUGGESTED THIS. Not the doctor.
Then you say.... " Are I am sorry you sound like you are not very educated on these drugs"
um... who sounds uneducated now?
And lastly, you tell me not to take offense. I do. Because I'm not an addict. And I don't know why,I can't help myself, I'm going to say it, YOU ADDICTS... keep assuming that I am. Just because a person says things that YOU have said, does not mean they are LIKE YOU. And if you think you came across as positive, you didn't. I think YOU THINK your a positive person. The fact that the doctor gave me a script for that many pills, my husband and I knew that was ludicrous.
And I promise Henry and Coolio, this is the last time I'm going to write this bit, I know you are sick of reading it..... NOT EVERYONE IS THE SAME. I have found the detox from this medication so much easier. I am taking a quarter of a 2 mg pill daily. That started yesterday. I will be jumping off on Friday. The wd's, FOR ME, on the lortab, were horrible. I got so incredibly sick within an hour of not taking my meds. After 2 days of being totally aware of the fact that I was not in pain any more, and only taking the pills because of wd's, I got on the phone to get off the meds. With the quick taper I've done on the sub, I've had NO ill effects. NONE. This is why I say every person's body is different. You don't know my body or how it reacts. You don't know me. And it's rather insulting for me to have you say, that you suggest NA meetings. I would like to say something rude right now, but I won't. Its like, no matter how many times you say your story, it doesn't matter. I had NO CHOICE in what happened to me. There was NO WAY I could have avoided becoming physically addicted to the pain meds. I was on them far too long. It seems like what some of you are saying is that if you have to take pain meds for a medical condition for a long period of time, and then your medical condition is taken care of and no more pain meds are needed... you are automatically an addict rather than someone who is just physically addicted to the drug. Is that how I'm reading it??? Is everyone who has to take pain meds for a long period of time and addict???
now to the soon2be
"Just about the time you start to sound like you get it , you turn right around and sound like you know it all"
thats funny, that's just what I was thinking about you.
Then you say
The way it reads is umm well I took them for pain and didn't do anything wrong to get them so I'm better than you all. I don't need anyone like you to look down upon me I do it enough for myself
how in the world do you get that out of what I've written????? Stop reading things in to it that are not there. I have NO malice for you. I pass no judgment. And I can assure you that I certainly do not look down on you. I know nothing about you for me to have any reason to "look down on you." Why would I anyway? Because you have an illness?? You think I'm the kind of person who would look down on another person who has a medical illness??? One that will kill them without treatment? I can promise you that I don't look down on you. But I just love the insult... "I don't need anyone like you...." Nice touch. Very nice.
Right now, these last 2 posts have taken me to a place mentally that I have honestly never been before. I don't get it. I don't understand why some people have to have it black or white. I keep saying that there are exceptions to the rule, that there is a percentage of people that are not taking the meds to abuse them. The whole time I was ill, I was given so many different pain meds. I was on everything. I was only switched to the lortab after my last surgery. When the stones and infection first started, it was vicodin. Then after the stents were placed, my pain was excrutiating... I was in and out of the ER and hospital for MONTHS as they tried to control my pain. I was on oxy, morphine, fen... everything. No matter what they gave me, I could not get comfortable with the stents in me. It was only after the last stents were removed, which, if I remember correctly, was the 19 of July, that the docs switched me to the lortab, hoping that it would be enough. It was enough. It took away the pain effectively. I got all side tracked there.... but like I said above, is every person who needs to take pain meds for an extended period of time an addict???
Another thing.. I have never said I'm not addicted. I AM physically addicted. But I'm not an addict. And I do not in any way look down on anyone who is. Like I've said before, I find it incredibly brave. So for you to to read some s h i t into something I have said that isn't there isn't very fair. I don't look down on you... and perhaps you shouldn't look down on you either. I believe in God and believe we are all forgiven and so if your worthy enough to be forgiven by Christ, shouldn't you forgive yourself and start loving yourself??? Because from what you said in that sentence, it sounds like you beat yourself for whatever reasons.
"I don't need anyone like you to look down upon me I do it enough for myself"
I just had to write it again to make sure I continue to read it right.
And as far as being blacklisted... I have already spoken with my regular care physician. I've been over this with her. I'm not worried about it because if I get kidney stones again, she'll remove the block. She and I discussed leaving the block in place unless I get ill again. She has the LAST say in my treatment, not this clinic doc. Only she can do it. And we've already discussed, on the phone, about when I finish with the detox, for me to make an appointment with her to go over the situation. This is when I plan on taking the remainder of my pills to her... which I have already said, but she is unaware of this. I just want to show her how many of my pills remain... and so I can go over what this doctor wanted me to take and HOW long he wanted me to be on the program. The whole thing was totally counter productive.
I just wish people would stop being so negative. That some of you would accept that not everyone is a certain way. But categorizing people you really don't know ... well it's just wrong. I do not look at anyone here in any sort of negative light because of how they got here. I am just not like that. We are all God's children. We all fall short daily. We all sin. No sin is any bigger than another.
At this point, I've just decided that I'm not going to respond to the posts that are very hurtful. I'm sorry that some of you don't get it. I'm sorry that I can't just be addicted .. that to some of you I HAVE to be an addict. I'm sorry that many of you take offense to what I write. Perhaps you should just stop reading.
I know where I'll be, at the latest, the 8th of August.... I'll be off the drug. There is no desire in me to use the meds again.
It's funny because Turner says she doesn't need someone LIKE ME looking down on her... when in fact, that is exactly what SHE IS DOING. To me.
So this is the last time I respond to the negative stuff. I'm doing great and I know what I am doing is working for me. So if you don't agree, that's fine. You have a right to your opinion.
But.... you know what they say about opinions........
I am not looking down upon you but you just showed your true colors. I have God and my life is getting better by the day. However you want to put it you are on the sub because you couldnt get off the meds and thats fine your life live it how you want to . I am not going to reply to your posts anymore, I feel that you are one sided and you see yourself as this poor person who is different because of medical reasons well alot of us are like that but we dont make excuse after excuse we just come here for support and to get clean. Its like you are trying to convence yourself and I hope that one day you can. But then again what do us ADDICTS know right?
Well said. Also, this post is getting way too long anyway. She sought out this site for help we did not seek her out. It seems to me that she is very 'fond' of the few people who agree with her. I also feel that her saying "YOU ADDICTS" was in extremely bad taste and I hope this is the last we hear of this subject from her. I also thought her turning a typo into meaning a person is uneducated showed that she is just reading the words and not really "listening" to what is being said. That was also uncalled for.
She can consider my post one of those negative posts she referred to and does not need to respond to it.
IMO...The bottom line here...is who the hell cares WHAT brings a person into recovery? Everyone is in the same boat and deserves the support. Everyone is going to have varied opinions...some of you think that Kecia is somehow in "denial" about being an "addict"....and Kecia has said over and over that she does not judge anyone for how THEY came to be here. SURE, a lot (I would imagine MOST people started out with a legit medical issue)....That is the problem with opaites...they cause DEPENDENCY...and TOLERANCE. Is the OP physically addicted to opiates? You betcha! Does she know it? ABSOLUTELY!!!
But then everyone gets hung up over and over about her refusal to label herself. FIRST of all...we're arguing over terminology and semantics.
Secondly...it absolutely positively DOES make a difference. If you want to get technical....addiction vs dependence are two different things. Sure...the lines aren't clearly drawn all the time....and there are a TON of similarities...but there is a difference, which is what the OP has been trying to explain...that she doesn't FEEL that she may require the same type of recovery as someone who is an "addict". She doesn't say that to put others down...my goodness...she says it b/c she is trying to differentiate. Especially in terms of aftercare.
Again...the difference...an "addict" is someone who usually takes their DOC for the "high", not for actual pain relief (even if it starts out that way)...MOST importantly...an addict is not only addicted to the drug...but also to the PROCESS of being addicted...the constant thinking of where the next pill comes from...when it will be taken....where is the next fix coming from? An addict at some point usually crosses a lot of "lines" that they never would normally...they do things WAY out of character for themselves to obtain their DOC. They take their drugs NOT as prescribed...they take more every time.
Now, does any of this really matter? I personally do not think it does. Sure, there are a lot of you who are convinced that Kecia is in denial about her "addiction"...hey..everyone is entitled to their opinion...but I don't think it is necessarily fair either to accuse her of looking down on people who took a slightly different road to get here. She herself has said over and over that she doesn't feel that way.
Bottom line...IMO..whether someone is an "addict", or has become physically dependent on a medication....this is a place for help and support. Why argue over semantics? Both sides of this "argument" have valid points....I can see that some people would be concerned that Kecia isn't being "honest" with herself...and hopefully she will prove you all wrong...she seems to have a pretty good grasp on things at the present moment...not to mention she has said she will do what it takes to overcome...if that means getting aftercare down the road...then I think her and her hubby will make that happen. Maybe she WILL come to find out that she indeed has MUCH more of a psychological dependence than she thinks...and if that is the case...then she will have to face that and deal with it. Right now...IMO...I think she has done a damn good job....and she HAS learned a TON about this process (as she has said) since her first post.
I just hate to see people hurting others with their words b/c of a difference in opinion. I can totally see where Kecia is coming from in that she has tried to explain over and over how HER situation may vary from others' (not to say hers is better or worse...just "different")..and I also see that people are concerned that she is somehow kidding herself. That's okay...it is fine that everyone disagrees a bit...but let's not forget the reason Kecia came here...and the reason everyone cares enough to share their experiences and wants to help others overcome.
I would honestly HATE to see Kecia get chased off...or start clamming up b/c she constantly feels as though she has to explain herself...there IS no right or wrong answer at this moment....just day to day...she needs support, and has really done tremendously. If it weren't for this forum, she would have been taking an obnoxious amt of Sub and would have had an even tougher road ahead of her. That in itself is incredible.
I am always astounded at the huge amount of support that everyone receives when they come here.
Well said. Also, this post is getting way too long anyway. She sought out this site for help we did not seek her out
This kind of thing makes me so sad. Of COURSE she sought you guys out!!!!!!. Are you kidding??? She needed help. SURE..at the beginning...she seemed as though she "knew it all"....but this thread has gotten long b/c of how much she has grown and learned. Because of the responders who care enough to help.
But, around every corner, she made to explain herself over and over and over. Now the thread is TOO long? That is just sad. I have been amazed at what has happened on this thread personally....INCLUDING how far the OP has come.
I honestly MUST be reading a different thread.
She has said countless times that she does NOT judge anyone....and does not feel any differently towards people who are here b/c of varying circumstances. I think it is VERY unfortunate that some have continued to try to convice everyone that that is exacty what she IS doing despite her pleas for people to try to understand where she is coming from. Every other post, she is made to try to explain her comments again and againi. They couldn't be more clear...she comes right out and says how she feels....yet she is still being accused of somehow looking down on others. Her recent comments were a bit harsh...but I imagine she is pretty frustrated...and prolly just gave in and said what others have insinuated she meant all along anyway. It doesn't matter if she says anything to the contrary.
I think we all need to remember why we are here....
For those that are slamming Kecia, please read the ENTIRE thread from the beginning (Even if you believe its too long) and THEN make your comments. Kecia has repeated herself over and over even going as far to say that "My heart goes out to all you that suffer addiction" and that if she had the mental aspect of addiction that true ADDICTS do that she could never do this and give us a lot of credit.
Does that honestly sound like someone who is putting down addicts? Would that person post and ask for help and support from a bunch of people that are known to be addicts? I think not.
Kecia has been told over and over and OVER again how shes in denial, she needs to follow dr's orders, and that she needs to go to NA. What she needs is support in getting off her meds in WHATEVER way she feels she needs to.
She has even wrote that she hopes her plan doesnt bite her in the A S S and that if she ends up in miserable wd or fails, she will gladly post she was wrong and eat crow.....
Kecia does not need NA. She does not need to learn how to live life on lifes terms. For those of you suggesting NA, I would look back to some of the things that you learned about addiction and NA's definition of an addict (Repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting a different result) Perhaps you should go to another meeting.
I could go on and on about the difference between an addict and a drug dependant person. But beyond the obvious, and addicts brain chemistry is drastically changed and different. Which is why someone who is dependant can detox off their drugs get hurt in a car accident years later, take pain meds for a short time and not become dependant as they were before. But an addict can not even take ONE pill without a VERY high chance of relapse into active addiction.
An ADDICT is an ADDICT for the rest of their life, and a drug DEPENDANT person is only dependant until their detox....
As far as this thread being "Too Long" Im baffled at that. Who are any of you to decide when the topic of a thread is too long? If you were struggling with something, and someone posted in YOUR thread that it was getting too long wouldnt you get defensive?
Kecia, please continue posting. I enjoy reading about your progress and after you are done with this battle we will have to have a "Distant" toast!
Ok, I want to apologize for saying this post was getting too long. I misspoke. I did take it personally the saying YOU ADDICTS and maybe i did take it out of context but some of things being said here are redundant. That is what I meant. I am sure that this post will also offend someone but it seems hard sometimes to put into words how one is feeling about things and I was thinking maybe she would like to do a new post for each successful day she has. That way all of the negativity would not be read over and over by each new person coming in to check out the site and it can be put behind us. I hope I have not overstepped my bounds by saying this, it is just a suggestion.
Did I read she was 2 days clean from the lortab? To bad she didnt hang for another 24 hours and the drugs woulda been out of her system and it coulda been down hill from there. Anyway I thought that a gigantic benefit to being dependant rather then addicted was the ability to taper from the original drug without using another. Seems like that would have been faster and cheaper. gl to everyone
thanks for so many of the wonderful posts. I accept that people have different views on things.. and that's what life is all about isn't it? It's nice to see other people besides Henry and Coolio who are supporting me. I appreciate everything that has been said since my last post. Except maybe a few.
I have to say, after I logged off this morning, I was in tears. Its more than frustrating to repeat yourself over and over and continue to be attacked.
After I calmed down, I decided I had had enough. I have NOT taken any meds today. And I am not planning it. If I get sicker than a dog, then I get sicker than a dog. So today is my Independence day. I jumped... whooo hooo. So, I am terrified and don't know what to expect. Scared s h i t l e s s or does that word have two t's??? hee hee
I will try and come tomorrow but truthfully, I don't know how I'm going to feel. I've been ok today... nothing too bad, mostly just sleepy. But with the half life, I suppose I really won't be in trouble until Wednesday... right?
Anyway....... even with the negative stuff, this has been one of the most amazing experiences of my life. Getting people to communicate is so cool. And as the post said above... this post is full of lots of valuable information. And I have to say, I feel kinda... speshal (hee hee) cause I started it all. (ok, no hate mail... I WAS kidding) (but ya know what I mean... it's kinda cool that I have been responsible for everyone voicing their views)
Thanks again to everyone who's posted such supportive words to me. To Nurse, Henry and Coolio. You all are angels.
Until tomorrow.... hopefully.
hey Kecia,I'm proud of you,and I wish you all the best!Please don't let others negative words and criticism bring you down,that's the LAST thing you need right now. It sounds like you're doing awesome with the sub,and you have an amazingly supportive and loving husband.
I really don't care how knowledgable you are about sub. or lortab dosages,or the semantics of it all,I think the important part is that 1.you wanted to get off lortab(for whatever reason)2. you have been doing a taper and done it so well that you'll be done long before what the dr. suggested. 3. you have a supportive hubby and several supporters on this board. You will for sure be in my prayers.
I'm also on sub and I'm now weaning off,I've been on it for 2.5 months,some people might say I didn't need it. But I feel like it was from God and worked perfect for me to get through. I realize I'm going to have some withdrawl,I'm just going as slow as I can and praying for the best,but I stand behind my decision. I don't have it to do over,so what would be the point of badgering myself for taking sub.??
anyway.....I'm sending lots of prayer,love,and big(((((((((HUGS)))))))))you can do this,just go one day at a time and love yourself,forgive yourself,take good care of yourself.
whew first time i get to post and i have to wait 4 hours lol after reading all the post can i just say one thing isnt suboxen not considered a opiate well i also found out maybe im not an addict and just addicted na i think they are two in the same sorry just my opion and shelly and additedtome just wanted to say i have really enjoyed yall i love all your advise and i think you really have the knowledge if someone is willing to listen they could really go far
Yes, sub is also an opiate.....and there is no doubt that a lot of people have had a HELL of a time coming off of it.
I'm optimistic for Kecia, being that she has been on it for such a short time, not to mention at a pretty minimal dose. Will she be completely FREE of w/d's? Maybe not...but I think what matters is that she is ready and her mindset is right.
Her story can serve to be helpful for people...in that just maybe..it IS possible for someone to detox on a VERY low and rapid taper on Sub and do alright.
Again...everyone is different...depending on the DOC, length of usage, and amount....a plan like hers might not be appropriate for everyone. Someone in the throws of a serious psychological addiction often benefits more from the sub as a way to help with cravings moreso than holding off w/d's...which would usually mean a longer course of the Sub.
Fingers crossed.....I truly hope she continues without significant symptoms.
I had a good night. Weird thing right now, my hands are a bit shaky. I normally can type faster than a speeding bullet... but my hands don't want to work at the moment. I don't know if its the wd's or what... can't figure out what else it would be. Other than that, I have been OK. Very sleepy is all. A bit of crawling skin... but someone above suggested stretching when that happens and it goes away... sure enough.. it went away. I can't seem to get out of bed ... well, I don't want to I suppose I should say. I got my little one, who is 5 off to preschool (he starts Kindergarten in Sept) this morning and just arrived home to read the new posts. Can't hardly keep my eyes open. I haven't had diarrhea or the horrible body aches I felt before ... so if this is all I have to look forward to... then I'm good. I can do this with no problem.
Can anyone tell me how long I can expect this? Realistically, I am assuming that tomorrow is going to be my worst day. So that being said, how long should this and whatever happens tomorrow last me?
Thanks again for everyones kind words and faith in me. I am really hoping that by this time next week... I will feel like a brand new woman.
after tapering for 8 days on a 1/4 of the sub a day i felt really bad day 2-5 of being clean, im now 10 days clean i feel good. i still dont feel completely like myself again, but im not sure i would know what that feels like after i get there. hang in there. since u decided to do a low dose as i did hopefully u will be where i am when u get past day 4 or five. good luck
Pardon me Shelly. I'm not sure I was even speaking to you or directing my comment in your direction. However, if its clarification you need then here it is. She stated that by next week she will feel like a brand new woman. I beg to differ on that one. She will continue to use the sub for some time because she is an ADDICT like the rest of us on this forum. It is a physical and mental dependency. And she is not being directed by a physician which will make it worse and she will be more prone to relapse. Hope this provides some assistance to you.
Ok, thanks for clarifying this! I am not sure the "tone" you used was needed but you did answer my question and I am sure this will stir things up again - sigh, just as it was dying down. (i do agree with you on your prediction).
I'm really confused....all I ever read is how important it is to do a quick taper on sub,that it is a bad idea to stay on it long. Now Kecia has done a 2 week taper off sub and everyone is saying what a long haul she's in for and everything.I thought the short taper was a good idea and people don't have near the withdrawels???Now are you guys saying she should stay on long term?I just don't get it.
Good luck kecia,please just take it day by day. It's too hard to worry about the long haul all at once,so just take each day as it comes.I wish you all the best.
Funny that whirly says I'm going to keep using it, how can I when I have NO access to it. My husband has the medication in his safe. A safe that I do not know the combination to. He has been in control of giving me the meds on a daily basis. So your wrong Whirly. I won't find a reason to use it. There isn't one. There is not ONE clear reason for me to use the medication once I'm finished with the detox.
That being said, for those of you have read this post from the start and have been so supportive of me... I had a good day. Sort of... I'm not complaining because I am certain that tomorrow will be worse.
But my mind is still in a good place and I am still so optimistic about this whole thing. I know I'll be finished with this soon. For someone to tell me...."she is an ADDICT like the rest of us on this forum. It is a physical and mental dependency." When they don't know me is laughable. I have NO mental dependency on this drug. I didn't with my pain meds either. Once again I'll say this...... I never took my pain meds for any other reason than for my pain. Once the pain stopped... once all my kidney stones, stents and infections were gone, I wanted OFF the medication. Every person here might NOT be an addict... you don't' know all the circumstances behind every person or their story. If you don't have anything positive to say, please don't post. It's really pretty simple. I have never condemned anyone for the reason they are here nor have I ever told anyone that they are THIS or THAT...
I remember when my brother was doing his steps and the people he surrounded himself with at meetings... I remember being so impressed with those folks for conquering their problems head on. I never would have believed that some of the people on this forum attended meetings or read the big book. A lot of the stuff being posted here is so catty and really rather nasty. It's apparent that many of you will never believe that I do not have a mental addiction. I realize that. And really, that's ok. Because the only people I have anything to prove to are myself and my family. I feel like I have been given a miracle. Not because of this drug, but because my illness went away. And if the truth was told..... I hated taking the pain meds. I always felt so icky... so, well, my head was never clear. That's the grossest feeling in the world to me. Why would anyone want to feel like that on a daily basis if they didn't have to? I don't get it. But, I certainly don't pass judgment on people that find themselves in that situation. I suppose trauma, or molestation, or family issues would certainly make you want to numb yourself. But I have never been in that boat... and I thank God for that.
So that being said.... again, my hat is off to those of you who are still struggling... I am physically feeling the pains from the wd's ... but as I stated before, nothing to severe.. nothing I can't handle.
Christie... I am taking it day by day. I have to say, I find a lot of strength from many of you who continue to support me with your words and your prayers. I really have felt this inner strength that I didn't know I had... mostly due to ALL OF YOU who keep me going here. I haven't even been on the sub for 10 days.... so I agree with you... the short taper was the best solution for me.
Anyway... until next time my friends. And again, thanks for all the warm words and kind thoughts that you've been sending. It means more to me than you will ever know.
If you can get past that crawly skin feeling, you should be good to go. When I decrease my sub, I get that for a few days, but when I was detoxed off M'done it lasted for weeks and was unbearable!!! Its strange how our nerves over compensate from being dormant so long....
I enjoy hearing from you and your dedication to continued updates on your incredible progress.... From all the way in Budapest, Hungary I wish I could fed-ex ya a hug! :-)
Once again I will say You are on sub you are addicted or you wouldnt be on sub and in the end it doesnt matter how you got addicted you are and thats why you are tapering on sub. Good luck to you but please stop trying to convince all of us that you are so different and that you arent mentally addicted so its ok . ITs not any better, The sub is alot worse then if you had just tapered so watch out . I hope in the end you get well but it will always be in you to want those pills no matter what you say its there and maybe one day you will realize that =) have a good night im tired of talking to a brick wall
**And she is not being directed by a physician which will make it worse and she will be more prone to relapse**
Riiiiight. If she had been directed by a physician, she would be on 4X the dose she was on...with probably MONTHS of sub use to conquer. I don't normally encourage people to go it on their own...but my goodness in THIS situation...it is a BLESSING.
**She stated that by next week she will feel like a brand new woman.**
No.......THIS is what she said.....
"Thanks again for everyones kind words and faith in me. I am really hoping that by this time next week... I will feel like a brand new woman. "
(Notice the word "hoping"? )
Honestly...while ANYONE here is entitled to their opinion...I can't see how any of this back and forth arguing over a "label" is helping her in any way. It's quite discouraging.
There is a difference between dependant and addicted and if she says dependant then thats what I"ll believe but I"m still confused as to why the sub. Dependants can taper and shouldnt need sub to get off pills. Even a quick taper from the amount she was taking has to be compareable to succesful results from sub and it seems easier and cheaper. Oh well ..I (and everyone else) is rooting for ya,,gl
Sub is an opiod not an opiate and it tricks your brain by binding to the same receptors as the opiates do but it doesn't falsely produce endorphons the way opiates do.
I have successfully weaned myself off of a 20-30 10mg percacet a day habit with a mere 10 8mg Sub pills. It IS possible but that's merely physical.
Generally speaking those of us who have weaned off Sub can tell you that if you go passed a certain point; i.e., 21 days or so, you WILL become addicted to the Sub and even if the withdrawals (and there will be even if you drop down to a crumb) won't be QUITE as severe as say jumping from pure opiates, they will last a lot longer and drag out for what will seem like an eternity. That plays a BIG part of relapse.
Jump from the opiates, suck it up, you'll live... trust me you'll live....
God bless and good luck.
I hope in the end you get well but it will always be in you to want those pills no matter what you say its there and maybe one day you will realize that =) have a good night im tired of talking to a brick wall
With all due respect...(and I'm tiring of this subject as well..)....do you HONESTLY and TRULY say that there is NO difference whatsoever between someone who has become physically "dependent" on a med (where their body "needs" it not to w/d)...and someone who takes a drug for its high? LONGS for that feeling, chasing the high?
Of COURSE she needed some type of help in discontinuing the opiates...her body NEEDED them....same way if someone had been on Xanax for years...they would be physically "dependant" on them, and would need a program (taper, or otherwise) to successfully stop the med.
If you want to call her an "addict", so be it....the label matters not at this point...and I feel badly that she feels she has to continue to "explain" herself. You keep saying she keeps trying to convince everyone she isn't an "addict"...put yourself in her shoes for just one moment....can you not see why she would want to differentiate? It is important to her....NOT b/c she thinks that being an "addict" is awful...or b/c she is judging everyone else...just simply b/c her situation that brought her here is unique.
If she crosses the road where she has a revelation that INDEED she is psychologically addicted to this med...then she will have to deal with that. We're all splitting hairs here onverterminology (myself included)...but it really does bother me when I hear that people say there is absolutely NO difference between "addiction" and "dependence"...when there surely is (not speaking of Kecia in particular).
Would it make a difference if tomorrow she says..."YES! I *am* an addict!", and plans to continue to same detox plan....would you have something to offer her in terms of help and encouragement?
I just typed this huge reply to the post above and then erased it realizing it was not worth it to even post. I said a few posts back that I won't reply to the nonsense anymore. So I'm bowing out with grace.
Chris (hubby) sat down early this evening and read all these posts. He said, "wow hon, leave it to you to stir it up...." He's found great humor in a lot of the posts. He finds it all amusing that people seem to think that they have a person pegged without even knowing them. He just told me to "tell that dude...thanks for having my wife's back." So there it is.
We took a long walk after he got home from work. It made me feel a bit better. Today has been odd... I woke this morning with shaky hands... but that went away. I had a bit of the crawly skin but that went away. Mostly, I've just been very sleepy. Like I said above, I've got my middle son who is 14 helping out. He's been a true gem. We went to the store and bought bubbles... you are never too old for bubbles. I managed to sit on the back patio as the sun was setting and watch as he blew bubbles while the dogs went bonkers trying to catch them... it was hysterical.
To the rest of you that have been so amazing in this journey... tomorrow is going to be D day I'm afraid. I think if tomorrow I'm feeling worse than today... I plan on going to my mother in laws home about 45 miles from ours. She is just wonderful and I know she'll be able to give my youngest the attention he needs if I'm too sick to. She'll also take care of me.
I have to say .... now that it's been 2 days that I haven't stuck a pill in my mouth, it's so freeing. Knowing that in a week, I'll be feeling better is the light at the end of the tunnel that I've been looking for for almost a year now.
The one thing I will say in regards to the ridiculous post above... it show true arrogance to think you KNOW what I want. I DON'T want the pills. That's whats so amusing... the minute my pain was gone, it was time to stop taking them. So to say that I will ALWAYS want them, when I didn't want them in the first place... shows your ignorance.
It's apparent that YOU will always want the pills.... many people put their own issues on another ... it's always better to bring someone down to your level.
Until tomorrow my friends. Thanks for all the PM's, I understand completely why you don't want to post here. I don't wish the attacks on any of you.. so I thank you for the PM's and the kind thoughts and I totally understand why you've chosen to make your words private ... it's just nice to see that I'm not the only person to see the sadness in much of the posts.
People need to make their own realizations. People need to be responsible for their own choices and subsequent consequences. No addict wakes up and says, "I think I'm going to become a drug addict today". So whatever you need to call it to make yourself feel better. Just realize that you need to get sober regardless and whetjer or not you're a tomato or a tomahto, you're still a vegetable (or are they fruit) LOL.
Remeber though to work on everything that comes on like a freight train after the physical problems are seemingly over.
give it up girl. Seriously. I adore you for trying to make MY point... but it's not going to happen with Mrs. Turner. Not in this lifetime. She is set in the way she thinks and that's really fine.
I just want to say that I love that you have come to my aid. I read what she wrote and wanted to get all nasty again... like the ONE and only post where I did get a bit childish. For those who care... I do apologize for that. But Mrs. Turner continues to misconstrue my words and make statements that are just ludicrous. Thanks for pointing out that I said HOPING... Thanks for really reading all my posts.
And to Girly.... yea, now having read all these posts and learning what I have... I should have weened from the Lortab. But it's too late now. Anyway, I'm 2 days into no meds at all.
'Nuff said for tonight. And for all of you that continue to have my back... how about we don't even acknowledged the nonsense anymore. I said it awhile ago.. that I wasn't even going to respond... so how about we just ignore it. Nothing thats been posted thus far has made them see my story in a different light. They take "the different light" thing as an attack on them... that I'm saying I'm better than someone. When I clearly have not stated that. I suppose the probably think that one class is better than another. Or that one race is better than another. I really believe that's their mentality. Because if you can read, in black and white , what I've posted and then continue to say that I think I'm above another person... there is no hope.
Off now for good tonight... hubby just ran a hot bath for me. Yeesssssss... singing as I sign off.... I'm the happiestttt girlllllllll in the whole U.S.A (who sang that song anyway???_ Donna Fargo???
Bottom line is sometime you have to ask yourself 3 pertinent questions before you speak or in this cse write, especially since one's tone, unless ridiculously sarcastic, can't really be "felt"...... try and ask yourself whether "IT'S NECESSARY, IT'S TRUE AND WHETHER IT'S KIND".
I don;t know about this particluar conversation because honestly my head began to hurt, LOL, BUT I will saty this....... sometimes it's better to have peace rather than to be right.
K, enough from me.
Peace people, peace.
I'm with you. Totally lost on what the h*ll the labeling matters?She's getting clean weather she calls it dependancy or addiction. I don't get why so many people are worried about what she calls it. She knew she wanted and needed to get of lortabs and she's done it!That's awesome. Keep up the great work Kecia!We're rooting for you!
Im with ya all the way (Not like I need to tell ya that) But with you I will not respond to ignorant uninformed posts....
Your hubby really seems like one hell of a guy. Hell I wish I could find one like him! Uh oh did I just out myself? Eh oh well.... I'll probablly be bashed for that too! Now we both have labels Kecia! You can be the addict, and I can be the homo!
I am sooooo just kidding about that comment to everyone who is already building up ammo, I just thought the thread needed a lil joke.
Anyway..... Day three may not be as bad as you think. With the sub not having so long to build up in your system, it may be pretty mild. I mean if this is all the symptoms you are getting, then thats a hell of a lot better than Lortab wd!
I just can not get over how proud I am of a complete stranger! You have stuck to your guns, dealt with everyone's S H I T, and not lost light of who you are and your goal. I commend you for that.
Ironically I was havin a rough couple of days with my sub taper, and was thinkin about how you have "Hung in there" and it made me feel a lot better. Thank you Kecia!
I am not sure who you are angry with but your posts are so long and drawn out. I don't really care whether anyone here considers themselves an addict or not. My experience is that even when the physical withdrawals are over, there are still issues to contend with. In my opinion, and this is an open forum, correct??, she has a long road ahead. Good luck stones.
I have just started catching up with this thread as I had a very hard time coming of of Sub. The physical WDs were hell, and I was only on it for about 6 months. The emotional recovery is much, much longer than any painful physical issues.
I have never seen someone try and defend themselves so thouroughly to both constructive, and sometimes hostile criticizm. What I am seeing is a person who wants so badly to feel a certain way she will say whatever she needs to to make it look like she is better than an addict, and is completely in control. And by the way, whether you admit addiction, or say you are only dependant, i doesn't matter. you chose Sub. and that is the issue at hand.
I know you know this, but Sub. should be given by, and monitored by a doctor. Then followed up with some type of treatment to stop the triggers and prevent relapse. Whether it be church, counseling, NA, whatever. Taking any prescription drug without a doctors supervision is dangerous.
You calling Sub. a "miracle pill" that has solved everything for you and now your life is back to being perfect is fine. But to blast those that question this because they went through it or are going through a terrible hell is wrong. Don't make a statement like that without expecting this type of feedback.
Recovering addicts know that any given day can be a battle. The followup depression, fatigue, cravings are long, long term. Physical recovery is a breeze compared to the mental aspect.
But you have it all figured out, you have a happy ending for every scenario thrown at you.
If thats how you feel, great, but don't blast those that attempt to add feedback from personal experience.
Angry? I'm not "angry" at anyone..and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. FWIW, I don't totally DISAGREE with everything that has been said on both sides...I understand that to some, the Sub choice might not have been what others would have chosen...especially b/c one of the main things that Sub does is help with cravings, and the psych aspect of drug addiction/dependence (using them together b/c I am not differentiating).
You speak of this being an open forum? What has bothered me is how Kecia has been villified for HER opinion. Even if every single person here thinks she is an "addict" who is in total denial, that is fine...but don't accuse her of looking down on people who consider themselves addicts, that simply isn't fair....she DOES see herself differently and has explained over and over WHY she feels that way...whether you agree or not. She isn't entirely wrong to feel that way IMO...and it just upsets me to see her having to defend herself at every turn. Yes, she did come to this thread thinkig she had a lot of answers about Sub...but quickly was informed...which she has expressed her gratitude for that over and over. Thank goodness she DID come here. If she had followed the physician's orders, she would be in one he** of a pickle. And again...I do not condone going against the grain normally at all....but a lot of people have received great advice here...and have detoxed solely on the experiences of others here. And, have done well.
I just see it so differently...maybe in the beginning...there was a legit gripe with Kecia...but she really has opened her eyes and is trying her dam*dest to make this work...so she is optimistic...is that a bad thing? Maybe she is even being unrealistic? She'll find that out as she continues...but either way....if she had the unconditional support and knowledge from the posters here...it would surely help her a lot. And, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing either...but that isn't what happened here....her words have been twisted, and she's been painted as a different person, despite her pleas for people to TRY to understand where she is coming from. Again, back to the "tolerance" thing.
Lastly...it DOES bother me when people are SO insistent that there can be NO variations from "addiction"...that simply isn't true. There is a VERY gray area between the two, for sure...but there ARE unique qualities about each situation that would definitely alter the advice and suggestions. Again, I understand that some people think she is in complete denial and is an "addict" no matter how you look at it. There is nothing wrong with having that opinion...but don't try to jam it down her throat...that just isn't helpful. And before you say that she has done the same with insisting that she ISN'T an addict...she didn't post about it after the first exchange...but it keeps being brought up over and over and over again. I can see why she is defensive...I probably would be too...more so that she is being told that she considers herself "better" than others. That is just SO not fair.
That is just how I feel, take it or leave it. I'm not the type of person who gets "angry" with others for sharing their opinions. I am just very disheartened at the turn this thread has taken, to be totally honest. I have nothing but the utmost respect for everyone in this forum..and MANY many many times have suggested from the Anxiety forum that those who are having trouble discontinuing a benzo, or an SSRI....come here for guidance, and they always get the help they need. I have always been very impressed by the level of caring and compassion. Just because this situation does not maybe fit the "norm"...why should Kecia receive any different treatment?
Ooops, there I went again...another long and drawn out post. I have always been very "wordy", and for that I certainly will not apologize for. People are welcome to skim over my posts if they choose not to read them.
With that...I am in agreement with everyone who has said this whole back and forth just isn't productive and it is only adding fuel to the fire. I am going to try very hard not to engage in this specific part of the discussion anymore...for everyone's sake.
Sadly...I agree that this specific topic may benefit from being taken to PM's....which is unfortunate, b/c not only does the OP gain a huge amount of knowledge here, but the lurkers do as well. (Just my opinion, Kecia..I'm not saying that is necessary).
where to start...hmmm..? well, first of all, i'm in your hubby's shoes. so, big hugs to him because i know first hand the kind of stress this can put on a person.
i know i've said this before, but it's worth repeating. sub is not for everyone. from my understanding, it should only be used w/ people who have a long history w/ addiction. after explaining your circumstances to the sub dr. and he wanting you to be on the sub long term, that should've been a red flag. good thing you left. the part where you got the script filled anyway....that somehow seems a little wrong to me...and deceptive. i realiize that maybe you were sick and not thinking clearly???
also, if you told your dr. (the one prescribing the pills) that you didn't need them anymore, that dr. should've informed you about all your options as far as tapering down, etc. i would be skeptical of any dr. that would just let you quit cold turkey knowing you would be sick and suffering especially since you weren't abusing the medicine and taking it as prescribed.
anyway...best of luck to you and hubby.
I am sorry I have to ask why is her situation different from mine ?
I also needed them for pain and health reasons. And i get the point where a person who
is not an addict would not need to use suboxone and also would not come to
a site like this....If she where just physical dependent she could have just tapered
off of her pills, why use suboxone ? I did not take my pills to get high.......
But until I a told myself I was addicted ever time I got into pain I thought I could use
pain meds..So I wish her the best but I see a relaspe waiting to happen.
Nurse, Henry, Coolio... I'm not even reading the other posts... because I can where they are going within the first sentence.
I had a good night. A bit on insomnia. Nothing to bad. I'd wake and just watch this stupid BBC America show called CASH IN THE ATTIC... if the truth is told... I love that stupid show. Hee Hee.
I'm sleepy and my hands aren't working very good... but I have a really good HEAD today. More than I did yesterday anyway. I suppose because I haven't read any of the nonsense. It affected (or is it effected???) me more than I thought it would yesterday and my husband knew something was up 7 hours later when he got home from work. He could tell i'd been stewing on something. But I feel really good today. Same weird shaky hands and stuff... but my mental outlook is a whole different ball game. I'm going back to bed... my 14 year old just ordered me too.... I really think the worst might be over. Oh no... famous last words. I'll post again later. Big hugs to YOU KNOW WHO.
Ok Nurse. Block me or try not to engage. LOL. Are you sure you are in the right forum? What was your dependency? And how long did it take for your individual recovery? All I said was it was a long road. I never said she would continue using sub or any other drug "legally or illegally prescribed' by a physician. I spoke from my own personal experience. What were the doctors orders exactly? She may have been placed on a very low wean dosage according to the levels of opiates in her blood. Perhaps you should keep your overly drawn out posts to private messages.
coco...maybe YOUR situation is NOT different from hers.
One thing I want to address...
If she where just physical dependent she could have just tapered
off of her pills, why use suboxone ? I did not take my pills to get high.......
Addiction/dependence...whatever...a person is STILL going to have significant withdrawals.....why would she NOT seek help to aid her during that process? Maybe she could have looked at other options besides the sub...but I don't get why for those who DO differentiate between dependence and addiction....it is cut and dry...why Kecia should have been able just to taper and been perfectly fine??? NO one ever ever ever said that getting OFF the pills was EASY for a dependent person...or easier for a dependent person. It is a PHYSICAL dependdence.
I hate to repeat myself...but there are some aspects of addiction that arent present in a "dependent" person...that is ALLLL I've been trying to say.
Really...I just need to stop reading...and agree to disagree....I just cannot seem to express what it is I'm trying to say. And, I know it is hard to read "tone" into the written word...I didn't mean that to be snarky. Honestly. Just kind of throwing the towel in....there is no "winner" of this discussion...and it isn't that important to me to continue debating it...everyone viwes it differently.
I forgot...I meant to post this link...maybe it will make more sense coming from someone other than me. ;0)
A quote from the article in the link:
Physical dependence, tolerance and addiction are discrete and different phenomena that are often confused. Since their clinical implications and management differ markedly, it is important that uniform definitions, based on current scientific and clinical understanding, be established in order to promote better care of patients with pain and other conditions where the use of dependence-producing drugs is appropriate, and to encourage appropriate regulatory policies and enforcement strategies
Perhaps you should keep your overly drawn out posts to private messages.
LOL....Oh believe me....it is tempting...now perhaps you should read the link I provided.
NOW I AM bit angry b/c I dont deserve to be addressed as you have addressed me...I didn't insult you, put you down, or critique your posting style. Perhaps learn to have an educated discussion rather than resorting to put downs, eh?
Ok, now I sorta get it. The one question that keeps being asked, 'then why is she on
the sub in the first place. Its called being uninformed. I was really struggling with the w/d's from the lortab. Really badly. The diarrhea, the body aches, the sweats. I had started to taper ON MY OWN before finally calling my regular care physician to ask for help. Because I was just really really ill.
That being said... I knew NOTHING about sub. Nothing. Never heard of it. Obviously, what my husband and I should have done was come home and done a bit of research on it. I can't say it would have changed anything. I don't know. I just know I was sicker than heck and wanted to not be sick. When your in the throws of wd's, your not thinking real clearly. But see, this is the perfect example of A DOCTOR WHO DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING. I have heard over and over that I shouldn't have even been given the sub. I had no idea the dangers of this drug and I only was SAVED by what this doctor wanted to do to me... a long slow taper.... by coming to THIS FORUM. I became pretty informed, rather quickly. I was on the sub for a total of 8 days. I have now been off the sub for... well, today is day 3. But maybe that is where some of the confusion is... where many of you aren't "getting it." You keep asking, if she isn't an addict, why is she on sub. So I see the confusion. It makes me really sad to know what could have happened if I had done what this doctor wanted me to do. I would have been ill for so much longer than necessary. So the answer to your question about why was I on the sub in the first place... it's because I didn't know any better. And I didn't ask enough questions, and neither did my husband. But anyone who's been totally sick with wd's ... which by the way, the clinic told me to come that way.. .which I found weird... they wanted me withdrawing from my meds and sick when I arrived.) knows that thinking clearly or rationally is a tough one when your in that state. My husband did ask some questions, but they weren't the right ones...
Anyway. I hope that maybe helps you see why I ended up on the sub. Perhaps I should have tried to stay and taper on the lortab, but it was extremely painful. I haven't had that with the sub. I know many of you say I will feel it mentally, the wd's are bad ... with depression etc. I haven't had that YET. I pray I don't. But I can assure you, even with all the nastiness here... I will seek assistance with that part of it HERE if I should find myself struggling with it.
And I do appreciate your opinion. I do. But this is also where the 'you don't know me" thing comes in. Before the kidney stones... I was the type of person who would NOT take pain meds for a tooth ache or having dental work done. I would take over the counter Tylenol. I would not take a script from the dentist. The only time I've taken pain meds is with the kidney issues and the stents. Because I just could not bear (bare?) it. So hon, everyone is different. This is why I kept getting so frustrated. While you found yourself wanting to take the pills for every little pain, I don't have that same desire. That does NOT , AND I REPEAT... it does not make me any better than you. I do not think that for one minute. Please oh please don't take it that way.
Anyway.. I hope maybe this sheds some light on things. I apprec... gosh, my hands are not working right now... I do appreciate your last post. The tone was much different. Thank you for that. It would be nice if we could all be civil here. I have gained so much from being here.
Excellent post, Kecia...and it IS thanks to this forum that you are doing SO well, thank GOD!
I think it is a shame that you were put on the sub as well...the only hope I have is that so far...so good...I hope that you continue down the road to recovery without too many potholes. At least, now you are better equipped and better educated to deal with it.
Im so sorry but I have to get this off my chest....
It seems as many people posting the negative comments here are quite uneducated themselves on Suboxone therapy and Substance abuse.
Simply put, Opiate use for whatever reason, pain or recreation. Leads to TOLERANCE which leads to DEPENDENCE, which leads to ADDICTION. This comes straight from the American Medical Association. Us addicts took it all the way down the line, Kecia has halted this process at dependance. And it is very different.
"If she where just physical dependent she could have just tapered
off of her pills, why use suboxone ? I did not take my pills to get high....... "
If you take opiates for a long period of time and are human you are going to have wd's. Why put yourself through that misery if you dont have to? Suboxone does not cure addiction. It simply minimizes wd's and allows your brain's receptors to begin producing its natural morphine again.
When we ingest foreign opiates for long periods of time, our brains stop producing endorphins. Endorphins are chemically identical to opiates, and when our bodies get them from an outside source, they feel they dont need to be produced anymore. We stop ingesting foreign opiates, and then have NO endorphins in out receptors, which is why we wd, and feel like hell. Suboxone minimizes the wd's from coming off your former opiate of choice and kick starts endorphin production so thatwhen we stop our DOC, there is more endorphins (Serotonin, Epinepherine, Dopamine, Norepinepherine) filling our receptors than would be without the Sub.
The reason we experience Sub wd's is because even though our bodies are producing these wonderful chemicals again, sub is still partially held in those receptors by its high binding potential, and until it can come out all the way endorphins can not get it, which is why we feel kinda like ****.
I hope this helps, Im sure it wont but I tried..... If anyone would like to explain or argue my thoughts please PM me. Some of the things said on this board could really turn a person off to this site....