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Bipolar and Ocd: Similarities? During Manic Episodes Do You Have Trouble with Obsessive Thoughts?
Obviously, I know the difference between bipolar and ocd. But I notice during moodswings, mainly manic I have obsessive thoughts. Not always disturbing ones but they can difficult. And this must be true for some other people as well. I don't know if there is any overlap between the two disabilities but to some extent there must be as a person going on a spending spree may be a compulsive spender or they might be having a manic episode and binge spending. I know that before recovery that I would spend a lot of money and becoming obsessed with having certain cd's. It wasn't always a matter of money. There was an obsessive element. Or wanting to travel somewhere for no reason on impulse. The impulsive behavior was manic but there was an obsessive nature behind it as well. Have people been through this as well? Perhaps someone could explain.
From what my pdoc says, the two can overlap - obsessive thoughts and the impulsive behaviors with manic episodes. The lines are blurry. It's the "which came first the chicken or the egg" scenario. I've had obsessive thoughts when I'm depressed too.
A relationship years ago, did not end well, there was no closure, on top of the fact some of my possessions were stolen. I became completely obsessed and on a mission to get them back. I think I called her pager 20 times. I finally snapped out of it thankfully. So I figure they can occur when swinging about.
A relationship years ago, did not end well, there was no closure, on top of the fact some of my possessions were stolen. I became completely obsessed and on a mission to get them back. I think I called her pager 20 times. I finally snapped out of it thankfully. So I figure they can occur when swinging about.
yes my pdoc says the two over lap. i don't have ocd, yet the cutting has to be evenly spaced, straight and even numbered! (maybe i should have been a surgeon!) also tend to obsess about things when in dysphoric mania which has been for a long time now. as he says 'divert, divert, divert'. not always easy!
The two can overlap, that is true for sure. Again the two are quite different in signs and behavior and one doesn't bring the other, yet some pdocs argue that OCD is one of the gateways to PB1, along with panic disorder and ADHA.
My point is that both OCD and BP are not face and tail of the same coin. BP the old name manic-depressive in which one has to witness both episodes. OCD is intrusive thoughts, compulsive behavior, undecidability regarding things, etc..
If i describe my case i was dx first OCD, then upon an abuse of anafranil (AD) i showed the clinical signs of BP. Yesterday i was extremely tense as I signed the contract with my new job. It was so stressful as it reads 15 pages. They also told me i should study a course to be certified in some programming. For the 1st time in 2 years it showed signs of OCD, i began to be undecided, whether to put on my watch in my left hand or right hand whether I should tighten my shirt at the neck, whether I put a neck tie or not, do like the monk with my thumb touching things, etc... even yesterday i went to buy an expensive book perhaps the spending spree again, It's the stress i am sure from my 4 past experience of OCD that even if it is inherent in me but it INCREASES under stress. I can't really say that I was manic yesterday.
Since both increase under stress, people think that they are related. I think they are totally different both in behavior and signs. But psychology tells you that usually people tend to "catch" many psychic diseases at a time. Sure one can have OCD without being BP this is definite no question about it. Also the opposite is true, BUT and this is one argument i always hold and many object to it is that BP can be a complication of a psychic disease like you start as OCD person or having a panic disorder or ADHD then an abuse of meds turns you to BP clinically. A few only who can show manic behavior and depression consecutively or alone. The proof is that so many people nowadays are categorized BP the statistics say at least 1/100 don't you think it's too much. Without the meds abuse can one tell me in the 19th century say the percentage of manic-depressive (the old name) was. This 1/100 is like saying half of the state of california today is BP
good day
ezz
My point is that both OCD and BP are not face and tail of the same coin. BP the old name manic-depressive in which one has to witness both episodes. OCD is intrusive thoughts, compulsive behavior, undecidability regarding things, etc..
If i describe my case i was dx first OCD, then upon an abuse of anafranil (AD) i showed the clinical signs of BP. Yesterday i was extremely tense as I signed the contract with my new job. It was so stressful as it reads 15 pages. They also told me i should study a course to be certified in some programming. For the 1st time in 2 years it showed signs of OCD, i began to be undecided, whether to put on my watch in my left hand or right hand whether I should tighten my shirt at the neck, whether I put a neck tie or not, do like the monk with my thumb touching things, etc... even yesterday i went to buy an expensive book perhaps the spending spree again, It's the stress i am sure from my 4 past experience of OCD that even if it is inherent in me but it INCREASES under stress. I can't really say that I was manic yesterday.
Since both increase under stress, people think that they are related. I think they are totally different both in behavior and signs. But psychology tells you that usually people tend to "catch" many psychic diseases at a time. Sure one can have OCD without being BP this is definite no question about it. Also the opposite is true, BUT and this is one argument i always hold and many object to it is that BP can be a complication of a psychic disease like you start as OCD person or having a panic disorder or ADHD then an abuse of meds turns you to BP clinically. A few only who can show manic behavior and depression consecutively or alone. The proof is that so many people nowadays are categorized BP the statistics say at least 1/100 don't you think it's too much. Without the meds abuse can one tell me in the 19th century say the percentage of manic-depressive (the old name) was. This 1/100 is like saying half of the state of california today is BP
good day
ezz
The reason many object to the argument is all of the studies and scientific evidence proves it wrong.
You are BP or not. Its that simple.
And OCD is like ADHD - a common misdiagnosis on the path to Bipolar.
I think there is a serious misconception of what Bipolar is here as well - one does not have to witness both episodes - the defintion of Bipolar is easy to find and its fairly clear - yes there is mania and hypomania but some Bipolar's have very little depressive episodal history or long periods between them.
Adel you see to have this issue with the 19th century. The 19th century was hell for all mental illness and manic depression was not used - terms like sexually insane and other labels were used and aslyums were little more than torture chambers in many cases.
You do no catch psychiatric diseases - yes drug use such as Ice and meth can cause psychosis but that is due to damage to the brain.
OCD an ADHD and BP are different diseases - and if you look at the way these are misdiagnosed there is often an unqualified person making the diagnosis such as a GP or family doctor.
you see a BP In a depressie phase and its major depression - you prescribe an Anti Depressant and watch the fireworks. Ive been there.
You are BP or not. Its that simple.
And OCD is like ADHD - a common misdiagnosis on the path to Bipolar.
I think there is a serious misconception of what Bipolar is here as well - one does not have to witness both episodes - the defintion of Bipolar is easy to find and its fairly clear - yes there is mania and hypomania but some Bipolar's have very little depressive episodal history or long periods between them.
Adel you see to have this issue with the 19th century. The 19th century was hell for all mental illness and manic depression was not used - terms like sexually insane and other labels were used and aslyums were little more than torture chambers in many cases.
You do no catch psychiatric diseases - yes drug use such as Ice and meth can cause psychosis but that is due to damage to the brain.
OCD an ADHD and BP are different diseases - and if you look at the way these are misdiagnosed there is often an unqualified person making the diagnosis such as a GP or family doctor.
you see a BP In a depressie phase and its major depression - you prescribe an Anti Depressant and watch the fireworks. Ive been there.
Yes as I've said before I was prescribed Anafranil and it made me manic and psychotic because my correct diagnosis was schizoaffective. But I clearly have signs of ocd. If someone coughs or sneezes or sniffs I'll feel contaminated. Its not a psychotic thought that I will catch something deadly. I just can't handle it. The sound itself disturbs me. I will walk out of the room. I've always been this way since a kid and kept organized collections such as coin collections as well obsessively. No anti-psychotic even the study agent I'm on has dealt with it. It was seperate from psychotic thoughts though at one time a psychiatrist of mine told me it was masking them. But I don't tend to have psychotic thoughts now if at all but I do have obsessive thoughts.
They are not wildly irrational or disturbing. But everything is listed and arranged. And if I want to go places I have a list. Some are written down. Some are kept mentally. And certainly during moodswings the obsessive thoughts worsen heavily. I could keep the spending in check but I would compulsively go through music guides to see what else I wanted and obsess about unknown albums and when I bought them they weren't that great. I did note that they are studying a criteria "schizo-obsessive disorder" but then again the only medication that stopped any obsessive thoughts was the Anafranil so perhaps I do have ocd after but if the only medications that treat it are the SSRI's that's a "no go" for me and behavioral therapy didn't work. Psychotic thoughts were terrifying at times but those have faded. Obsessive thoughts are just annoying and intrusive but that's not to say they don't impact on me. But after a mood stabilizer settles in they do as well.
They are not wildly irrational or disturbing. But everything is listed and arranged. And if I want to go places I have a list. Some are written down. Some are kept mentally. And certainly during moodswings the obsessive thoughts worsen heavily. I could keep the spending in check but I would compulsively go through music guides to see what else I wanted and obsess about unknown albums and when I bought them they weren't that great. I did note that they are studying a criteria "schizo-obsessive disorder" but then again the only medication that stopped any obsessive thoughts was the Anafranil so perhaps I do have ocd after but if the only medications that treat it are the SSRI's that's a "no go" for me and behavioral therapy didn't work. Psychotic thoughts were terrifying at times but those have faded. Obsessive thoughts are just annoying and intrusive but that's not to say they don't impact on me. But after a mood stabilizer settles in they do as well.
Well, answering to your question of whether or not others experience this swing into OCD, especially during a manic stage - I have had experiences similar to yours yet I have OCD during any cycle, a bit different during a mania stage. Depressive state, everything has to be perfectly in order. In mania, my ocd is similar just a bit less riged. I haven't done a spending binge in quite a few years, nor have I painted my entire home in one day. Even so, I relate to the spending binges and obsessive thoughts around them.
Hope this information is useful
Hope this information is useful
Well I cant get things clean enough when I am manic I keep cleaning over and over. then I go back and reclean it. then I keep imaginining there is more dirt and germs and I go back to clean again. ( could use a little clean freak right now at my house,lol)
And this doesnt even touch the bug thing I have when I am not on my meds.
Maybe OCD is a different dx from bi plar but I think they are all connected and since everyone is different different things will come out in our psychosis.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Love Venora
And this doesnt even touch the bug thing I have when I am not on my meds.
Maybe OCD is a different dx from bi plar but I think they are all connected and since everyone is different different things will come out in our psychosis.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Love Venora
I know mania is irrational and abnormal but its not actually psychotic unless a person has bipolar with psychotic features. I've posted enough about the Phase II study antipsychotic I am glycine to say it basically mitigates the psychotic thoughts and that's been clearly identified. It is not however a mood stabilizer so there are occasional breakthrough manic episodes. Of course I am on a mood stabilizer now so that's helping. But clearly some things bother me that are ocd related such as using public restrooms. I basically don't but yet at the same time its not "psychotic" in that I don't think anything terrible will happen to me. Its just a feeling of disgust and I always had that as well even as a kid before I started to have a problem with schizoaffective disorder which started at age 13. So I might have ocd. Very hard to say. My psychopharmocologist could always see this was a problem but he never made an exact diagnosis of ocd but he did clearly state I could not take the medications for it for the reasons I detailed as they will worsen mania. So its more a matter of cope with it. But as mood stabilizers kick in it lessens so they must be related.
While OCD and Bipolar can occur together as can ADHD and BP I think its important to seperate the behaviour from the diagnosis lest you fall into the trap that many GP's and Family Docs do by hearing hoofbeats and thinking zebras.
Obsessive behaviour and fixation are normal aspects of Bipolar behaviour and they are different from OCD - the obsessive cleaning and clean freak is not neccesarily OCD - OCD is a mental illness and the TV driven belief of it being about cleaning obsessively is about as accurate as the portrayal of all Schizophrenics as lunatics prone to stabbing people at random.
Read the NIMH page on OCD : http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd/index.shtml
Its not BP at alll but because of some aspects of BP which cross over the misdiagnosis is common as it is with ADHD which hypomania looks like as well - you have to be careful of diagnoses sometimes and reading lists of symptoms - something some people are prone to do.
Adel I have already established that your psychiatrist needs to be replaced - if it looks like a duck and quacks... I think you need to find competent medical management and stop reading the internet for diagnosis - the fact that a doctor says you are OCD doesnt make you OCD and especially if the source is suspect.
Obsessive behaviour and fixation are normal aspects of Bipolar behaviour and they are different from OCD - the obsessive cleaning and clean freak is not neccesarily OCD - OCD is a mental illness and the TV driven belief of it being about cleaning obsessively is about as accurate as the portrayal of all Schizophrenics as lunatics prone to stabbing people at random.
Read the NIMH page on OCD : http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd/index.shtml
Its not BP at alll but because of some aspects of BP which cross over the misdiagnosis is common as it is with ADHD which hypomania looks like as well - you have to be careful of diagnoses sometimes and reading lists of symptoms - something some people are prone to do.
Adel I have already established that your psychiatrist needs to be replaced - if it looks like a duck and quacks... I think you need to find competent medical management and stop reading the internet for diagnosis - the fact that a doctor says you are OCD doesnt make you OCD and especially if the source is suspect.
I find that when I'm in a manic episode, I tend to exhibit OCD symptoms... like obsessively cleaning the kitchen counter top, or vacuuming every single day, and making sure that I vacuum in perfectly straight rows, or I do it over.... it's weird, but it happens to me... and I shouldn't be laughing about this, but I must say, when I'm manic, my place is clean to the point of sterilization.... of course it works opposite when I slide into a depressive state... then I get sloppy..... I don't mind the cleaning so much, but I hate the manic episodes..... makes me feel like I'm backsliding for some reason..... even though I know this is just a presentation of the illness.....so, yeah, I think they can overlap, but it might not be a separate disorder, as it tends to co-exist in the manic phase (at least for me)......
I remember spending one day (literally 7 hours) vacuuming my apartment. It's 850 square feet, I laugh now, but I honestly thought at the time, that my vacuum just wasn't picking up the dirt, and I could see it... it was crazy, I would vacuum, turn it off, and 20 minutes later I was vacuuming again.... cleanest floor in the state that day, I'm sure :)
Yes that's true but one can have a secondary diagnosis. The only reason I don't ask about it more is that all known anti-ocd medications will make me manic. I do think cbt would be a good idea. I just know the kind I tried that was helpful for a friend of mine who actually is diagnosed with ocd (and as happens has bipolar with psychotic features as well so they can indeed co-exist although they are different) from stopping taking 4 hour showers (at that time, there was no medication for ocd yet) was not helpful for me. It was called "flooding" and you described your obsessions and the therapist described giving into them in detail on a tape and you had to listen to it over and over which I did but it didn't convince me either way. I know there are other forms of behavioral therapy and perhaps some would be better for me.
But clearly mania has a part in it. And in the past psychosis as well. Organizing your own house can be normal but some people with ocd do obsess on it and spend the whole day. And when I am manic I always put things in order. But in the past I would organize other people's apartments for them. I just couldn't stand to see a mess anywhere. When the local park was trashed by a bunch of kids who had a "rave" I reported it and nothing happenned so I spent hours in the hot sun cleaning it up. Clearly not very rational (later on the parks dept. finished "my" work). But that was years ago.
But a familly member as yet under treatment for bipolar when they get stressed or in a conflict with me will start organizing my stuff or fixing my clothes. And when I pointed out to them they were controlling me second hand they realizes it for themselves and stopped. And they thought they had ocd as well but I pointed out to them that certain nights they worried about "bad things they had done in the past" were when they were depressed and when they "asked for supportive advice" from a fiance who passed away on other nights they were manic. They spoke to their therapist who agreed and they are seeking psychiatric help. The psychiatrist of course will make the final diagnosis but it seems it was never ocd so people shouldn't confuse the two but when bipolar and ocd co-exist in a person they can and do overlap.
But clearly mania has a part in it. And in the past psychosis as well. Organizing your own house can be normal but some people with ocd do obsess on it and spend the whole day. And when I am manic I always put things in order. But in the past I would organize other people's apartments for them. I just couldn't stand to see a mess anywhere. When the local park was trashed by a bunch of kids who had a "rave" I reported it and nothing happenned so I spent hours in the hot sun cleaning it up. Clearly not very rational (later on the parks dept. finished "my" work). But that was years ago.
But a familly member as yet under treatment for bipolar when they get stressed or in a conflict with me will start organizing my stuff or fixing my clothes. And when I pointed out to them they were controlling me second hand they realizes it for themselves and stopped. And they thought they had ocd as well but I pointed out to them that certain nights they worried about "bad things they had done in the past" were when they were depressed and when they "asked for supportive advice" from a fiance who passed away on other nights they were manic. They spoke to their therapist who agreed and they are seeking psychiatric help. The psychiatrist of course will make the final diagnosis but it seems it was never ocd so people shouldn't confuse the two but when bipolar and ocd co-exist in a person they can and do overlap.
Yes people can have multiple diagnoses but that does not mean most do or that those diagnoses are right. Aspects of bipolar can and do look like OCD just as they can look like ADHD but that does not make you either.
How many manics in a psychtic state have been diagnosed as psychotic or schizophrenic? How often do bp patients in a depressed state get diagnosed as MDD and given AD drugs and end up dysphoric?
How many manics in a psychtic state have been diagnosed as psychotic or schizophrenic? How often do bp patients in a depressed state get diagnosed as MDD and given AD drugs and end up dysphoric?
I agree about ocd and add. I also agree about people with bipolar who are misdiganosed with depression but that's because someone goes to the psych. hospital in a suicidal state and doesn't talk about their "really good days" as they see them which are actually undiagnosed mania or hypomania.
I was originally diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. That was changed to schizoaffective. I know many people here have bipolar with psychotic features. I'm sure you are aware of how they differ so no need to discuss. But I would say a manic episode although it deviates from reality is something understandable. But psychosis even it occurs during mania is another issue. Sometimes its the symptom not the specific diagnosis. Psychosis is usually treated with an antipsychotic. Even if someone has bipolar if they are in an extreme manic episode will be given an antipsychotic to cool things down and then tapered off it. The best mood stabilizer I was on was Clozaril. It covered both psychosis and mania and I didn't require a mood stabilizer. That is common. Unfortunately it took care of my personality as well. I've never found anything, including the study antipsychotic I am on that can serve as both in a person with schizoaffective and its frustrating.
I was originally diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. That was changed to schizoaffective. I know many people here have bipolar with psychotic features. I'm sure you are aware of how they differ so no need to discuss. But I would say a manic episode although it deviates from reality is something understandable. But psychosis even it occurs during mania is another issue. Sometimes its the symptom not the specific diagnosis. Psychosis is usually treated with an antipsychotic. Even if someone has bipolar if they are in an extreme manic episode will be given an antipsychotic to cool things down and then tapered off it. The best mood stabilizer I was on was Clozaril. It covered both psychosis and mania and I didn't require a mood stabilizer. That is common. Unfortunately it took care of my personality as well. I've never found anything, including the study antipsychotic I am on that can serve as both in a person with schizoaffective and its frustrating.
I do wonder when people take medication and still have some remaining mania and these episodes occur that lead to behavior that isn't destructive but a bit unproductive if there isn't some way to redirect it. I generally try to do that but I do wonder if there's some form of behavioral therapy that can deal with that. I know when I used to have that problem I saved up chores and household tasks for those days and I knew as a rapid cycler they would happen. When I worked in the past, on those days I would get papers in order. A lot of what I do might happen more in a manic state but I catch the manic energy and redirect it. I do take a mood stabilizer but its not perfect. I think you can tell I just took it by post length lol.
it's nice discussion, yet we will never know for sure what we are talking about. People who have studied for years don't know, i mean the doctors. Trying to hit our heads against the wall is a good pass time but we will not undo the puzzle.
It's true, sure OCD and BP are different, otherwise why calling them differently, especially that an AD like anafranil did me good one day, really good when my OCD was at its peak, today it does harm for me as it turns me manic. The idea that things change all the time with the brain, otherwise why from start we fall ill.
It's like how ILADVOCATE feels, that directly after signing my new contract of the new job i started yesterday, i went to check the toilets, they are clean. I am obcessed by the idea that i may have to go to the WC while at work and that i may find it dirty. I remember i had a brain lock for a few months on this issue of toilets and i kept thinking and rethinking when applying for a new job what will happen if i am stuck in a post with bad toilets. You don't know how lovely when i found this time everything clean. Again and many times when i put my shoes i like to put them spaced and parallel, of course now it's less but when under stress these things appear. Why i was sure at the onset of my disease that i am OCD is simple because my father is one. He was never manic yes he said during his life he was a little depressed but never alarmed like everybody else, but when i fell ill he started to go back in history to realize that he is OCD. Before my illness he never thought there was something serious about him only he said weird and odd but now my illness made him understand his case. He never took meds had no problem ever except he said he lost his first girlfriend whom he loved because he kept asking and asking and reasking her about her past history, after 3 years she got tired and left him. We realise at home that he keeps asking the same question in a different way to make sure he receives a convincing answer people say he can be a good district attorney, he never touches knobs, washes his hand quite often if he shakes hand with others. He put his cellular phone in his left pocket and uses his left hand which he keeps it clean to pick it up while his right hand he consecrates for shaking hands with people. He consumed 12 cellulars in 2 years because he sometimes forget and uses his right hand to answer the phone so he goes and washes the machine with soap and water (of course he knows well he is doing something crazy) so I think no need to doubt whether he is OCD or not and that by extrapolation I should have caught this from him, yet i shake hands with people easily, never get disgusted like him. So don't tell me my onset of the disease is BP. In the family we heard of BP only after 2006 after a 3 months solely of anafranil, then life went upside down, but from there on i became more liable to mania, you see now why i said that BP could be a complication. Especially as i was so stressful the 1st day in work i began to hesitate whether i should wear a hand watch or not, to either put it on my right arm or left, do things illogic, you can't convince me that my illness started with BP it was mere OCD, i was the type during my infancy calm quiet happy gentil tranquil with no noise charitable etc... so how come i developed this rage 3 times now in 2 years, beat my father in his stomack with my leg more than once and my legs on my mother face during my mania, how come i metamorphosed except the bloody anafranil which was my amazing pill one day because i stopped my risperidone 1mg during 3 monthsw i.e. my MS a mistake of the ignorant pdoc.
so my friend OCD and BP are different
ezz
It's true, sure OCD and BP are different, otherwise why calling them differently, especially that an AD like anafranil did me good one day, really good when my OCD was at its peak, today it does harm for me as it turns me manic. The idea that things change all the time with the brain, otherwise why from start we fall ill.
It's like how ILADVOCATE feels, that directly after signing my new contract of the new job i started yesterday, i went to check the toilets, they are clean. I am obcessed by the idea that i may have to go to the WC while at work and that i may find it dirty. I remember i had a brain lock for a few months on this issue of toilets and i kept thinking and rethinking when applying for a new job what will happen if i am stuck in a post with bad toilets. You don't know how lovely when i found this time everything clean. Again and many times when i put my shoes i like to put them spaced and parallel, of course now it's less but when under stress these things appear. Why i was sure at the onset of my disease that i am OCD is simple because my father is one. He was never manic yes he said during his life he was a little depressed but never alarmed like everybody else, but when i fell ill he started to go back in history to realize that he is OCD. Before my illness he never thought there was something serious about him only he said weird and odd but now my illness made him understand his case. He never took meds had no problem ever except he said he lost his first girlfriend whom he loved because he kept asking and asking and reasking her about her past history, after 3 years she got tired and left him. We realise at home that he keeps asking the same question in a different way to make sure he receives a convincing answer people say he can be a good district attorney, he never touches knobs, washes his hand quite often if he shakes hand with others. He put his cellular phone in his left pocket and uses his left hand which he keeps it clean to pick it up while his right hand he consecrates for shaking hands with people. He consumed 12 cellulars in 2 years because he sometimes forget and uses his right hand to answer the phone so he goes and washes the machine with soap and water (of course he knows well he is doing something crazy) so I think no need to doubt whether he is OCD or not and that by extrapolation I should have caught this from him, yet i shake hands with people easily, never get disgusted like him. So don't tell me my onset of the disease is BP. In the family we heard of BP only after 2006 after a 3 months solely of anafranil, then life went upside down, but from there on i became more liable to mania, you see now why i said that BP could be a complication. Especially as i was so stressful the 1st day in work i began to hesitate whether i should wear a hand watch or not, to either put it on my right arm or left, do things illogic, you can't convince me that my illness started with BP it was mere OCD, i was the type during my infancy calm quiet happy gentil tranquil with no noise charitable etc... so how come i developed this rage 3 times now in 2 years, beat my father in his stomack with my leg more than once and my legs on my mother face during my mania, how come i metamorphosed except the bloody anafranil which was my amazing pill one day because i stopped my risperidone 1mg during 3 monthsw i.e. my MS a mistake of the ignorant pdoc.
so my friend OCD and BP are different
ezz
I think what he was pointing out was not our ideas about different diagnoses but concerns about your treatment. Actually the person I know who has ocd and bipolar with psychotic features now takes Abilify and Lamictal and it keeps the symptoms relatively in check. We just all had the concern of 3 antipsychotics being prescribed to you at once which clearly is not a good thing but you had said you were getting that updated to one antipsychotic which was Seroquel which at a working dose would be effective for psychosis and mood stabilization. There's still a potential you could have ocd as well and my psychopharmocologist never said I didn't have ocd. He just said the medications for ocd would not be a good idea for me as being SSRI anti-depressents they would set off mania. If there were a working medication for ocd that weren't in this category he would probably prescribe it but he's looking to treat what he can. I have an excellent working anti-psychotic, but need to find a better mood stabilizer but right now my and his concerns and primarily neurological treatment. I've found ways to manage the ocd symptoms and I really couldn't tolerate more medications. They are concerned I'm on enough medications already as per interactions.
But as for yourself if you didn't have bipolar they would be nothing wrong with asking about an anti-ocd medication but there is the concern of them worsening mania but there's no reason, no to try cognitive behavioral therapy for ocd if that seems warranted. That can be helpful and might be a good way to resolve what medication can't treat.
But as for yourself if you didn't have bipolar they would be nothing wrong with asking about an anti-ocd medication but there is the concern of them worsening mania but there's no reason, no to try cognitive behavioral therapy for ocd if that seems warranted. That can be helpful and might be a good way to resolve what medication can't treat.
You thought I am trying to convince people of my ideas. On the contrary monkeyc helped me a lot and i am pleased to have somebody around for help. I feel he really cares, no doubt about it and i am not trying even to win in the discussion. All of you are more learned and besides, you have unfortunately a longer history of BP, however this is a forum and we are doing a brain storming. We are just trying to resolve a subject which nobody were able so far to resolve. How could we!! For instance people can report cases in which the meds were lovely for years then at a certain point in time they prove inefficient. Can you explain that. I usually read what you, monkeyc, bulldozer, leftcoastchick and the rest are saying whether i participate or not in the discussion I said before it's a jigsawpuzzle where i do my homework to grasp piece by piece. For example your friend with lamictal and abilify benefited for his OCD because both look like an AD, but beware if he is BP he can soon - hope not - have mania because both work upwards.
thanks a million
one point interesting though, i notice everybody keeps his true name in discretion. OK this is understood. Perhaps nobody likes to be called BP, even when you post the program asks for your nickname, apparently it is taken for granted that nobody displays his true name. It seems - and that is so in another forum - that people guess this may cause them trouble. OK but why bizarre names, people from the west part of the globe can call themselves nicknames like john west or emily fitzgerald or chris appleyard or Jack smith etc... etc..., whereas from the eastern part nicko blakhoff or suki yakashima, why so complicated names even to spell.
"adel"
thanks a million
one point interesting though, i notice everybody keeps his true name in discretion. OK this is understood. Perhaps nobody likes to be called BP, even when you post the program asks for your nickname, apparently it is taken for granted that nobody displays his true name. It seems - and that is so in another forum - that people guess this may cause them trouble. OK but why bizarre names, people from the west part of the globe can call themselves nicknames like john west or emily fitzgerald or chris appleyard or Jack smith etc... etc..., whereas from the eastern part nicko blakhoff or suki yakashima, why so complicated names even to spell.
"adel"
Well that's just because its a public thread. Its a matter of confidentiality. And perhaps we should continue this particular aspect of the conversation in pm's if you wish. Thanks. People pick their particular screen name for their own reasons. I do advocacy for people with disabilities (in the independent living model) as a volunteer so that's how I got mine. Ask other people if you want.
Anyway, back to topic, although anti-depressents can worsen bipolar, Lamictal is a mood stabilizer and an effective one at that. Abilify is an antipsychotic. They will help it. Sometimes antipsychotics can work on ocd. It depends on the person. Medication to be honest is still an art, not a science but they are learning and certain things are a known quantity. I think the sites on the "links" page should give you more cogent information.
Anyway, back to topic, although anti-depressents can worsen bipolar, Lamictal is a mood stabilizer and an effective one at that. Abilify is an antipsychotic. They will help it. Sometimes antipsychotics can work on ocd. It depends on the person. Medication to be honest is still an art, not a science but they are learning and certain things are a known quantity. I think the sites on the "links" page should give you more cogent information.
And this is what sometimes bothers me.
You see OCD and BP ARE very different things hence my comment on gateway diagnoses - the problem is that what looks like OCD can easily be something else to the untrained eye and most first line diagnoses are made by general practioners who know nada about mental illness beyond basic books and symptoms lists - at no time did I say OCD was not real I said that OCD and BP can and do share the same characteristics in come behaviours and this makes diagnosis hard - I also pointed out that ADHD is often a misdiagnosis for BP and in particular a worrying one as Ritalin can be very bad for BP's.
Now to your comment about BP onset - Its not remotely relevant as to BP being new to your family - its not always genetic or runs in families and it is entirely possible to be both OCD and BP no one says it is not - I am frankly bored with the argument that you caught OCD from something else - it doesnt work like that and you and I both know if adel - denial is denial.
Now you made a comment on Lamactil and Abilify causing mania. I would like to see a source on this as theyre both Anti Psychotics and they do not cause mania - in fact neither of them have this as a listed or known side effect. Lamotrigine (Lamictal) does have some anti depressant effect due to its action but it works as a mood stabiliser to control mania not cause it.
Thanks to my little episode of suidical ideration I have been getting an education lesson first hand in Anti Depressants and Anti Psychotics as im now taking Zyprexa for sleep and a big dose of Effexor and I have a pretty good working level of knowledge of AD drugs anyway with a history with SSRI's and having taken Mirtazapine, Prothiaden and now Effexor - All AD drugs can cause mania to bipolars which is why a mood stabiliser is needed - this is not a guess Adel this is documented reality and the right combination of MS and AD are vital.
The problem I see is this - you are trying very hard to prove to yourself you are not bipolar. I advised you get a second opinion 3 months ago, clearly you are suffering from manic episodes and clearly you are under medicated.
However reading web forums never gives the full picture - for example my old GP prescribed me Endep (amitryptiline) as an AD - its an older Tricyclic and I never took it - had the full pack of 50 50mg pills here ad was going to use them on thursday night in one hit. BUT as my psych pointed out this is a drug that should NEVER be given to bipolars and it says so on the prescriber database - had I actually taken it I would have gone dysphoric at best and suicidal at worst as its very bad for us.
If you do not educate yourself you can have issues BUT that does not mean you should believe everything you read - reputable sources are resputable sources.
You see OCD and BP ARE very different things hence my comment on gateway diagnoses - the problem is that what looks like OCD can easily be something else to the untrained eye and most first line diagnoses are made by general practioners who know nada about mental illness beyond basic books and symptoms lists - at no time did I say OCD was not real I said that OCD and BP can and do share the same characteristics in come behaviours and this makes diagnosis hard - I also pointed out that ADHD is often a misdiagnosis for BP and in particular a worrying one as Ritalin can be very bad for BP's.
Now to your comment about BP onset - Its not remotely relevant as to BP being new to your family - its not always genetic or runs in families and it is entirely possible to be both OCD and BP no one says it is not - I am frankly bored with the argument that you caught OCD from something else - it doesnt work like that and you and I both know if adel - denial is denial.
Now you made a comment on Lamactil and Abilify causing mania. I would like to see a source on this as theyre both Anti Psychotics and they do not cause mania - in fact neither of them have this as a listed or known side effect. Lamotrigine (Lamictal) does have some anti depressant effect due to its action but it works as a mood stabiliser to control mania not cause it.
Thanks to my little episode of suidical ideration I have been getting an education lesson first hand in Anti Depressants and Anti Psychotics as im now taking Zyprexa for sleep and a big dose of Effexor and I have a pretty good working level of knowledge of AD drugs anyway with a history with SSRI's and having taken Mirtazapine, Prothiaden and now Effexor - All AD drugs can cause mania to bipolars which is why a mood stabiliser is needed - this is not a guess Adel this is documented reality and the right combination of MS and AD are vital.
The problem I see is this - you are trying very hard to prove to yourself you are not bipolar. I advised you get a second opinion 3 months ago, clearly you are suffering from manic episodes and clearly you are under medicated.
However reading web forums never gives the full picture - for example my old GP prescribed me Endep (amitryptiline) as an AD - its an older Tricyclic and I never took it - had the full pack of 50 50mg pills here ad was going to use them on thursday night in one hit. BUT as my psych pointed out this is a drug that should NEVER be given to bipolars and it says so on the prescriber database - had I actually taken it I would have gone dysphoric at best and suicidal at worst as its very bad for us.
If you do not educate yourself you can have issues BUT that does not mean you should believe everything you read - reputable sources are resputable sources.
About lamictal and abilify causing mania, this I was not precise and i am sorry for it. Yet lamictal OK it's an AC and abilify an AP (2nd gener. atypical) but both are working well for depressed people more than for manic like lithium say. some people find abilify perfect, many though brought anxiety to them they feel agitated and brings insominia this is why it's better taken in the morning and this i am definite about reading it from responses of patients, it isn't like seroquel which tends to be sedating yet both as AP can work as MS. Same for the AC lamictal it is best used for depressed people. Of course one assumes since both are MS then they are good for BP in general but one finds that lithium is good especially for mania and for lessening suicidal ideation, etc.. others depakote works perhaps for cyclers etc... so although my guess could be right my conclusion is of course wrong since i had no proof. Still what i meant is that since both work upwards then i EXPECT that the person will be tense, contrary if you use lamictal and seroquel because they equalise each other as seroquel is a strong antimanic.
i hope i corrected my mistake.
as to trying to prove that i am not BP on the contrary i can admit it and am in fact admittimg it, except that no one can say that AP cannot work as MS which you keep telling me that I should use an MS meaning not AP. However you have a point you and ILADVOCATE that 3 AP's is funny. Yes indeed, but i am OK so why going into the dilemma of trying a new thing. But don't you think i am worried of what i am taking, because as you said i can be manic from inside and a very simple straw can turn me manic. Of course i am on my nerves, but i am calculating the risk so long as i still don't crash into depression
thanks
ezz
ezz
i hope i corrected my mistake.
as to trying to prove that i am not BP on the contrary i can admit it and am in fact admittimg it, except that no one can say that AP cannot work as MS which you keep telling me that I should use an MS meaning not AP. However you have a point you and ILADVOCATE that 3 AP's is funny. Yes indeed, but i am OK so why going into the dilemma of trying a new thing. But don't you think i am worried of what i am taking, because as you said i can be manic from inside and a very simple straw can turn me manic. Of course i am on my nerves, but i am calculating the risk so long as i still don't crash into depression
thanks
ezz
ezz
Abilify is activating. It can't make a person manic. But it can cause insomnia and on occasion nervousness. That's correct. Lamictal in higher doses can sometimes worsen mania. I was taken off it for that reason. Generally at standard doses its well tolerated though. That's why Lithium is the most effective mood stabilizer overall and the only one developed for mood stabilization originally. If you are on 3 antipsychotics together it puts you at risk for certain long term side effects. One is much safer. Seroquel does work not only as an antipsychotic but as a mood stabilizer and actually more in that regard than Abilify. Ask the people who take it here. If your psychiatrist is agreeing you should be on a working dose of Seroquel and that alone I would go along with that. That's the best plan and I would say anyone would agree, including any psychiatrist you would speak to anywhere.
Adel you are not on 3 AP drugs you are on 3 sedatives which just happen to be AP drugs. There is a huge difference between drugs being used as designed and drugs being used for another purpose.
And in fact Anti Psychotics DO work as Mood Stabilisers - Zyprexa is just one example. Im not sure where you get the impression that we say they dont.
What we say is that theyre not true Mood Stabilisers they are Anti Psychotics with Mood Stabilising properties the same as they have Anti Depressive qualities but they were not designed as MS drugs.
Lithium is in fact equally effective in both phases and does work on Depression - Im not sure where you are getting your information but its not what i would call clearly defined - Lithium is STILL 50 years on considered the best mood stabiliser.
This is also the danger of reading resopnses from people on web forums - they say "X causes Y" but you have no idea of their actual drug mix, general health, stress factors, sleep patterns, diets etc - this is what irritates me most about Lithium haters who throw abuse at the drug and when you get them talking you invariably in 8 out of 10 cases that they did not follow the instructions, ignored warning signs of toxicity etc etc.
You dont know me, I dont know you - nothing I or anyone on the web say should ever be taken as gospel and that means read reputable sources and speak to a competent medical person.
As to why I am monkeyc and not john which is my real name - ive used monkeyc for a very long time and its also my domain name and nickname on a lot of sites - I dont much hide myself as use a consistent name.
And in fact Anti Psychotics DO work as Mood Stabilisers - Zyprexa is just one example. Im not sure where you get the impression that we say they dont.
What we say is that theyre not true Mood Stabilisers they are Anti Psychotics with Mood Stabilising properties the same as they have Anti Depressive qualities but they were not designed as MS drugs.
Lithium is in fact equally effective in both phases and does work on Depression - Im not sure where you are getting your information but its not what i would call clearly defined - Lithium is STILL 50 years on considered the best mood stabiliser.
This is also the danger of reading resopnses from people on web forums - they say "X causes Y" but you have no idea of their actual drug mix, general health, stress factors, sleep patterns, diets etc - this is what irritates me most about Lithium haters who throw abuse at the drug and when you get them talking you invariably in 8 out of 10 cases that they did not follow the instructions, ignored warning signs of toxicity etc etc.
You dont know me, I dont know you - nothing I or anyone on the web say should ever be taken as gospel and that means read reputable sources and speak to a competent medical person.
As to why I am monkeyc and not john which is my real name - ive used monkeyc for a very long time and its also my domain name and nickname on a lot of sites - I dont much hide myself as use a consistent name.
pk. i am now totally confused. have just started lamictal and pdoc is talking about adding in abilify. is this a bad combo? as you all know i have tried so many different antipsychotics, tricyclics, ssri, mmri? and lithium to no effect. any questions i should ask my pdoc about above two drugs? sorry to get off the ocd/bp discussion. i asked pdoc about topamax and he wouldn't even consider it. don;t know why. have bipolar with dysphoric mania and cutting. got through twenty four hours without cutting but not twenty six! an improvement anywat. again sorry for digression. btw zyprexa nd effexor was a really bad combo for me, extreme agitation and start of cutting and burning.
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