Aa
is this believable?
http://www.herbalprovider.com/hepatitis.html?src=ggl&w=hepatitis&gclid=CLDerea-oqACFQk65QodeC46aw
The part about hepatitis C at a glance is absolutely correct. I've never taken supplements so can't help you there but in my opinion is it can't hurt.
Trinity
Trinity
Do you not believe the clinicals they cite? Do you believe they are fake?
What about these clinicals?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720970/pdf/1749-8546-4-12.pdf
And these clinicals?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695921/
Or do you just want to not believe any of them, no matter what the evidence says?
I am taking Dr. Zhang's MCM (Modern Chinese Medicine) formulas. My enzymes went from high (ALT 150) to normal (ALT 42) in three months. My VL is now under three thousand (2770), probably due to raising my LDN dose to 4.5mg. My previous high was 7 million. And my labs are completely normal for the first time in many years.
I realize that fibrosis is independent of VL and enzymes, but if you believe the first clinical I cited above, fibrosis staging can be drastically improved by MCM herbal formulas.
And, yes, it is true that hep c can only be cured by SOC. But that statement does not mean that one cannot live with hep c; that you cannot improve your condition.
I understand that it is the mission of many on this board to encourage people into SOC. But objectivity cannot be faked - either you are or you are not.
What about these clinicals?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720970/pdf/1749-8546-4-12.pdf
And these clinicals?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2695921/
Or do you just want to not believe any of them, no matter what the evidence says?
I am taking Dr. Zhang's MCM (Modern Chinese Medicine) formulas. My enzymes went from high (ALT 150) to normal (ALT 42) in three months. My VL is now under three thousand (2770), probably due to raising my LDN dose to 4.5mg. My previous high was 7 million. And my labs are completely normal for the first time in many years.
I realize that fibrosis is independent of VL and enzymes, but if you believe the first clinical I cited above, fibrosis staging can be drastically improved by MCM herbal formulas.
And, yes, it is true that hep c can only be cured by SOC. But that statement does not mean that one cannot live with hep c; that you cannot improve your condition.
I understand that it is the mission of many on this board to encourage people into SOC. But objectivity cannot be faked - either you are or you are not.
And yet we've seen others who's liver enzymes have tripled using the chinese formula's. Cure the disease for real and therefore your liver enzymes will be normal and you will have a ZERO viral load. Risking causing more liver damage via Chinese herbs is not something I'd like to do. You do realize the more liver enzymes you have means more cell death and less of your liver left to try to cure.
Too late is too late.
Too late is too late.
"I understand that it is the mission of many on this board to encourage people into SOC"
Preposterous statement.
Preposterous statement.
What do the links you provided have to do with the original poster's question? There don't seem to be any similarities in the formulas being advertised. As for FZHY, I'll wait a couple years to see if anyone can duplicate those results before passing judgement. Definitely not the most convincing thing I've read on PubMed.
The point is that clinical trials exist on lots of different herbal formulas that point to efficacy. I listed some above. If one chooses not to believe them, then what is the threshold of believability? If you don't believe the evidence, then either point to the flaws in the study that support your scepticism, or just simply say that you disagree with all clinical studies that do not support your prejudices.
The point is that the remedies that you are espousing do not have any hard clinical data to support thier efficacy and it is not particularly relevant that other herbal remedies have perhaps undergone legitimate scientific testing.
Your either/or scenario omits more than it includes - the flaw is your assumption that if one herbal remedy has been studied, that speaks to the merits or demerits of any other, unstudied remedy.
Your either/or scenario omits more than it includes - the flaw is your assumption that if one herbal remedy has been studied, that speaks to the merits or demerits of any other, unstudied remedy.
"And, yes, it is true that hep c can only be cured by SOC. But that statement does not mean that one cannot live with hep c; that you cannot improve your condition."
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Living-With-Hepatitis-C/show/681
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Living-With-Hepatitis-C/show/681
The point is that many herbal remedies "have undergone legitimate scientific testing". To say that none exist is obviously wrong. To point to an herbal remedy with clinical trials and say that it is not believable is either a rational decision based on evidence, ie.: a flaw in the study design, or an act of faith that your opinion is correct, notwithstanding the evidence.
I am not espousing any particular herbal remedy. I never said that because one herbal formal has valid science behind it, then all herbal formulas are valid. I support any formula with valid clinical studies behind it. Science is science. And science is objective, not subjective. Science seeks the truth.
I like the Zhang herbs because 1. they share many common ingredients with FZHY, 2. the individual ingredients have clinical studies behind them, and 3. they seem to work very well for me, based on my labs.
I am not espousing any particular herbal remedy. I never said that because one herbal formal has valid science behind it, then all herbal formulas are valid. I support any formula with valid clinical studies behind it. Science is science. And science is objective, not subjective. Science seeks the truth.
I like the Zhang herbs because 1. they share many common ingredients with FZHY, 2. the individual ingredients have clinical studies behind them, and 3. they seem to work very well for me, based on my labs.
"As for FZHY, I'll wait a couple years to see if anyone can duplicate those results before passing judgement. Definitely not the most convincing thing I've read on PubMed."
Aren't you the guy that did TCM herbs all through SOC and believe that they helped you have only mild side effects?
Aren't you the guy that did TCM herbs all through SOC and believe that they helped you have only mild side effects?
Why complicate things/....certain foods and herbs help the body and LIVE-R.....only big pharma drugs cam kill the virus,its as simple as ABC...i really dont see any debate here,am i missing something?......NOBODY EVER SAID FOODS AND HEBS CURE HEPATITIS..maybe a few misinformed poor souls do,but i firmly believe certain foos,herbs and supplemets do help the body heal,anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken,just my thoughts
Show me the proof, I mean absolute proof.
My proof is that I tredated with SOC and cleared and am still clear 2 years later.
Again, show me REAL proof, Lets see labs before and after (real labs)
Denise
My proof is that I tredated with SOC and cleared and am still clear 2 years later.
Again, show me REAL proof, Lets see labs before and after (real labs)
Denise
Well, I don't get you confused with anyone else, although you all seem to all be part of the same choir. You demand evidence, often saying that none exists (not a scintilla of evidence!), then when it is presented to you, you say you don't believe it.
All I'm saying is if you don't believe clinical trials, don't you need a reason to support your disbelief? Do you also not believe SOC clinical trials? Or do you only believe the clinical trials that support what you want to believe? FYI, that is not objectivity, that is pre-conceived prejudice.
All I'm saying is if you don't believe clinical trials, don't you need a reason to support your disbelief? Do you also not believe SOC clinical trials? Or do you only believe the clinical trials that support what you want to believe? FYI, that is not objectivity, that is pre-conceived prejudice.
I really don't know if my sustained response to IFN and the fact that my CBC and CMP labs stayed close to normal during tx were because of TCM or in spite of it. It was a chance I chose to take.
I don't know if what worked for me would work for anyone else, so I don't push it on anyone else. The same holds true for supplements, both OTC and Rx. The things I take, I take for very specific reasons that might not apply to someone else.
I don't know if what worked for me would work for anyone else, so I don't push it on anyone else. The same holds true for supplements, both OTC and Rx. The things I take, I take for very specific reasons that might not apply to someone else.
singing the same old tune. if you believe dr slangs herbs are doing you good then keep doing them. more power to you. knock yourself out! If you are trying to provoke an argument then you are in the wrong place. I truly wish you well and my prayers go out to you.
if you are relying on your LFT's for the condition of your liver then good luck. I remember reading someone on the chinese herbs thought they were doing great with lower lft's only to find out the herbs put them in liver failure. Something about "NON"-regulated herbs from china being tainted with pesticides. You are living dangerously proceed with caution........
PS, when you are done with dr slang you may want to check out llyod wright's protocol.
if you are relying on your LFT's for the condition of your liver then good luck. I remember reading someone on the chinese herbs thought they were doing great with lower lft's only to find out the herbs put them in liver failure. Something about "NON"-regulated herbs from china being tainted with pesticides. You are living dangerously proceed with caution........
PS, when you are done with dr slang you may want to check out llyod wright's protocol.
Apparently I am in the right place for an argument. You say you vaguely remember an anecdote about someone you don't know who, blah blah blah. Give me a clinical trial please. You bash anecdotal evidence but throw out the weakest one I've ever heard.
Try to back off on the emotion a skitch. I'm very interested but didn't see super compelling proof yet. I prefer to not download PDF after PDF.
I did check out LIV-52 site, but it appears that all of the trials were in India, or the majority in the beginning of the list. Many were for "infective hepatitis"; I'm not sure what that is yet. I didn't download and open the PDF.
I went to Clinical Trials .gov and typed in LIV-52 and got no results.
What this may mean is open to interpretation.
I think that we can agree that the number of units sold worldwide is not a good measurement of efficacy. It's so cheap that I was tempted to buy it to try it. OTOH.....if it was super effective I would think that it would be more expensive. Cynical, I know.
OTOH..... it's price would have to increase by about a factor of 100 to be able to afford to do a clinical trial in the USA.
The only person I know of that used it made claims it was great. As it so happened I later found out that they were a bit off a fibber about other things. Made me wonder.
Liver Support sells this product. I think of them as more well liked/trusted than Lloyd Wright. Some people would consider that to be a good recommendation of the product. Ralph may have some data on the product.
Then again, I find it sold at Amazon for about a third of the price, but with no sense of dosage. It is almost as though they are selling some dilute form which doesn't list amounts. I'm not sure that speaks well of the compound or company. Maybe it's the Walmart thrift store equivalent. I don't know but that doesn't inspire me with confidence.
http://www.amazon.com/Himalaya-Liv-52-100-Tablets/product-reviews/B000VI3QAW/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
Lacking great clinical trials I would want a lot of convincing testimonials, better yet from people that are "known" in forums. I don't think I've seen that, and I first heard of it in 2003 or 4. I'm interested, but not convinced.
best,
Willy
I did check out LIV-52 site, but it appears that all of the trials were in India, or the majority in the beginning of the list. Many were for "infective hepatitis"; I'm not sure what that is yet. I didn't download and open the PDF.
I went to Clinical Trials .gov and typed in LIV-52 and got no results.
What this may mean is open to interpretation.
I think that we can agree that the number of units sold worldwide is not a good measurement of efficacy. It's so cheap that I was tempted to buy it to try it. OTOH.....if it was super effective I would think that it would be more expensive. Cynical, I know.
OTOH..... it's price would have to increase by about a factor of 100 to be able to afford to do a clinical trial in the USA.
The only person I know of that used it made claims it was great. As it so happened I later found out that they were a bit off a fibber about other things. Made me wonder.
Liver Support sells this product. I think of them as more well liked/trusted than Lloyd Wright. Some people would consider that to be a good recommendation of the product. Ralph may have some data on the product.
Then again, I find it sold at Amazon for about a third of the price, but with no sense of dosage. It is almost as though they are selling some dilute form which doesn't list amounts. I'm not sure that speaks well of the compound or company. Maybe it's the Walmart thrift store equivalent. I don't know but that doesn't inspire me with confidence.
http://www.amazon.com/Himalaya-Liv-52-100-Tablets/product-reviews/B000VI3QAW/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful?ie=UTF8&coliid=&showViewpoints=1&colid=&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
Lacking great clinical trials I would want a lot of convincing testimonials, better yet from people that are "known" in forums. I don't think I've seen that, and I first heard of it in 2003 or 4. I'm interested, but not convinced.
best,
Willy
I've looked back and read many of your posts Mike. I wish you could be that passionate about people on this forum and not just LDN or herbs. Gosh, so many unfortunate and sick people here with hepc who need support, a kind word, encouragement or just a hello, welcome to the forum. You know, a nice conversation, a few words here and there that things are ok and they're not alone. But no, it's always this same argument; no support and utimately we are all skeptics, unbelievers and misguided.
Yes, you can say Trinity you support people the way you see fit, and I'll do the same.
And that's fine Mike, but I can't understand why you just show up when there is controversy or you feel the need to convince people they can live with hepatitis c.
I think that says a lot about a person so you see I'm at a loss here because I'm not the that type of person. I can't turn my back on people and jump in every now and then when I think it's convenient or the controversy will further my cause.
Just saying..
Trinity
Yes, you can say Trinity you support people the way you see fit, and I'll do the same.
And that's fine Mike, but I can't understand why you just show up when there is controversy or you feel the need to convince people they can live with hepatitis c.
I think that says a lot about a person so you see I'm at a loss here because I'm not the that type of person. I can't turn my back on people and jump in every now and then when I think it's convenient or the controversy will further my cause.
Just saying..
Trinity
well said trinity. i dont think mud is that type of person. real shame because he is very passionate about what he believes and if he would only put that energy into positive feelings and helping others he would be a great member here. oh well this I'm afraid this is all we will get from him.
Like I said before if we ignore people like this they will go away. after all it is obvious they are starving for attention.
Like I said before if we ignore people like this they will go away. after all it is obvious they are starving for attention.
I never try to discourage people from doing SOC; I also never try to encourage them to do it. Some people, like myself, cannot do SOC again. Those are the people I try to encourage. Do you ever speak to those people? Do you ever try to give them hope, or do you just try to push SOC like so many people here, without giving a thought that over half the people that try it fail? When someone says that SOC is the only cure, do they realize that they are telling a lot of people who cannot do SOC that they are doomed?
I usually keep my support private, in private messages. But my message to them is that they should not give up if they cannot or will not retreat; that there is hope and there are things that will help. And I hope to keep updating those posts for quite a few decades to come. The arguments start when I post those thoughts, because a lot of people here believe that that message is an effort to dissuade people from doing SOC. They don't care about the poor people who tried it and cannot try agin due to extreme side effects. Therefore I don't post very often. When posters are telling someone that they should do SOC and that everything will be okay, I disagree, because they don't know that everything will be okay. For roughly half of them it will be terribly not okay. So I stay out of those posts. But who cares about them?
I usually keep my support private, in private messages. But my message to them is that they should not give up if they cannot or will not retreat; that there is hope and there are things that will help. And I hope to keep updating those posts for quite a few decades to come. The arguments start when I post those thoughts, because a lot of people here believe that that message is an effort to dissuade people from doing SOC. They don't care about the poor people who tried it and cannot try agin due to extreme side effects. Therefore I don't post very often. When posters are telling someone that they should do SOC and that everything will be okay, I disagree, because they don't know that everything will be okay. For roughly half of them it will be terribly not okay. So I stay out of those posts. But who cares about them?
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