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"Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? When My Lab Tests are Normal" by Datis Kharrazian
An open discussion of the book...
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
COMMUNITY LEADER
I totally agree with both goolarra and LazyMoose. They both said what I would have said. If your daughter had a yeast or bacterial issue, that may have been eliminated with the elimination of gluten for 7 months.
I would never suggest or even hint that your let her go "hog wild" with gluten. That would be a huge mistake, as her body is no longer used to it. What I meant was just a little bit here and there; gradually adding back in small amounts.
As I said and goolarra agreed with, since your daughter has neither Hashi's nor celiac, she has no antibodies to attack either gluten or thyroid (since she has none); therefore, the concept of gluten being connected to thyroid issue, would not apply in her case. It would stand to reason that since both yeast and bacteria feed on gluten and sugar - you could think that may have contributed to her issues.
We know that limiting sugar is best for general health; we also know, as has been stated many times, whole grains are generally considered to be part of a balanced diet, unless there is a specific reason to eliminate them.
I would never suggest or even hint that your let her go "hog wild" with gluten. That would be a huge mistake, as her body is no longer used to it. What I meant was just a little bit here and there; gradually adding back in small amounts.
As I said and goolarra agreed with, since your daughter has neither Hashi's nor celiac, she has no antibodies to attack either gluten or thyroid (since she has none); therefore, the concept of gluten being connected to thyroid issue, would not apply in her case. It would stand to reason that since both yeast and bacteria feed on gluten and sugar - you could think that may have contributed to her issues.
We know that limiting sugar is best for general health; we also know, as has been stated many times, whole grains are generally considered to be part of a balanced diet, unless there is a specific reason to eliminate them.
"Do you think that gluten can possibly be a contributer to yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the stomach?"
-Yes, gluten is the #1 food to eliminate when trying to kill off yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the digestive tract. There is a lot of written material on this. Again, in this case the elimination is not forever.
But some people are more prone to this for other reasons, not just hypo. And if this is the case indulging in gluten, carbs, sweets makes it more possible to return. Just dont indulge. So as with any food moderation is best..
Glazed doughnuts and Pizza with soda every day would be the worst possible diet not just in general but for gut health / Candida ect. When many people that had a diet like that quit (some really do eat that every day) as a wake up call to lose weight, they feel a lot better all around, this is one of the possible reasons.
-Yes, gluten is the #1 food to eliminate when trying to kill off yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the digestive tract. There is a lot of written material on this. Again, in this case the elimination is not forever.
But some people are more prone to this for other reasons, not just hypo. And if this is the case indulging in gluten, carbs, sweets makes it more possible to return. Just dont indulge. So as with any food moderation is best..
Glazed doughnuts and Pizza with soda every day would be the worst possible diet not just in general but for gut health / Candida ect. When many people that had a diet like that quit (some really do eat that every day) as a wake up call to lose weight, they feel a lot better all around, this is one of the possible reasons.
Precisely...they are attacking nothing. The antigen they are programmed to attack has been removed if they have no thyroid, so there is nothing to attack. However, antibodies will linger for a while after a TT in a Hashi's patient. When you have immunizations, antibodies are created against the antigen for the disease you are trying to prevent. Even though you might never come into contact with that disease, your antibodies remain active for many years. So, too, with thyroid antibodies.
If your daughter doesn't have a thyroid now and never has, it's virtually impossible for her to have thyroid antibodies (unless there is some vestigial thyroid tissue in her body). And, as you said, even if she did, what are those antibodies going to attack? Don't forget, we don't feel the antibodies themselves...all we feel is the damage that they have done to our thyroids.
If your daughter doesn't have a thyroid now and never has, it's virtually impossible for her to have thyroid antibodies (unless there is some vestigial thyroid tissue in her body). And, as you said, even if she did, what are those antibodies going to attack? Don't forget, we don't feel the antibodies themselves...all we feel is the damage that they have done to our thyroids.
Do you think that gluten can possibly be a contributer to yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the stomach? I have a feeling that this is the reason why the doctor wanted her off gluten just as Lazy Moose. However, she did also have the high gliaden result on her saliva test as I mentioned on the other post. The doctor also wanted her to avoid fungal foods like peanuts, and sugars and milk that feed the fungus for awhile and prescribed the Nystatin which she took for several months. As far as slowly adding in a little gluten here and there, we have done that a few times this summer (two weeks at camp) and have seen no issues in her yet. However, I'm afraid to let her just go "hog wild" as I do not want to see her get back to the way she use to be. (destinded abdomin, constipated with blood in stool at times, excess hunger and carb. cravings, weight gain, etc). These things are gone now and I don't want her slipping back into these, so I am very cautious. I have also wondered and have been asked if she could have Hashimotos antibodies even though there is no thyroid gland there since she was born without one? Do people who have a thyroid removed due to Hashimotos disease continue to have antibodies after the removal, and if so, then what are they attacking, nothing?
Really great discussion. Having other than autoimmune, I don't have many comments but great discussion group and WAY TO GO with everybody's thoughts!
C~
C~
COMMUNITY LEADER
You are saying that your daughter got so much better on the g/f diet, yet she has no thyroid and neither Hashi's, nor celiac, therefore there would be no antibodies of any kind involved in her case. I don't dispute that going g/f has helped her, you've told us that, but is it possible that her issues were related more to a bacterial or yeast issue in the stomach than to her thyroid issue? I would never discount her illness, but in her case, I can't see where Dr K's book would be relevant.
LazyMoose told us that he eliminated gluten in order to deal with a candida issue; that sounds perfectly legitimate to me. Gluten is thick and sticky (think gravy) and I can see where unhealthy digestion could encourage a yeast infection, because yeast thrives on substances that linger in warm places for extended periods. Therefore, I would have to ask, if you think it might be possible to slowly add in very small amounts of gluten to see if her underlying problem may have been resolved, since she's been off gluten for approx 7 months?.
LazyMoose you said: "Another way to look at it is these are all different problems that can be related and he is assuming it is related for all Hashi people. If that were the case, gluten would make me ill again, it does not". That is one of the points we are trying to make; Dr K is trying to convince us that ALL Hashi's must have these issues, so yes, as having Hashi's, gluten should make you ill; it should also make me and thousands of other people ill, yet it does not.
We must also keep in mind that there are many people who might be gluten intolerant and do not have either celiac or Hashi's; I'm not sure how Dr K fits them into the equation. This would be pretty much where magpieannie's daughter fits, if she is in fact "gluten intolerant" -- of course, Dr K would have her off gluten, but he even says himself that many people may be slowly reintroduced to gluten, "except for those with Hashi's".
LazyMoose told us that he eliminated gluten in order to deal with a candida issue; that sounds perfectly legitimate to me. Gluten is thick and sticky (think gravy) and I can see where unhealthy digestion could encourage a yeast infection, because yeast thrives on substances that linger in warm places for extended periods. Therefore, I would have to ask, if you think it might be possible to slowly add in very small amounts of gluten to see if her underlying problem may have been resolved, since she's been off gluten for approx 7 months?.
LazyMoose you said: "Another way to look at it is these are all different problems that can be related and he is assuming it is related for all Hashi people. If that were the case, gluten would make me ill again, it does not". That is one of the points we are trying to make; Dr K is trying to convince us that ALL Hashi's must have these issues, so yes, as having Hashi's, gluten should make you ill; it should also make me and thousands of other people ill, yet it does not.
We must also keep in mind that there are many people who might be gluten intolerant and do not have either celiac or Hashi's; I'm not sure how Dr K fits them into the equation. This would be pretty much where magpieannie's daughter fits, if she is in fact "gluten intolerant" -- of course, Dr K would have her off gluten, but he even says himself that many people may be slowly reintroduced to gluten, "except for those with Hashi's".
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