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"Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? When My Lab Tests are Normal" by Datis Kharrazian
An open discussion of the book...
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Glutin leaking through the gut is similar to 'leaky gut', but leaky gut is thought to be from more food than gluten molecules.
Since this is the general idea the book coveys -(from your post above):
"#2 - Gluten escapes the gut, and anti-gluten antibodies start on their search and destroy mission. However, they get confused by thyroid tissue and "decide" to attack that instead, and thus "Hashi's is born". So, so far we have anti-gluten antibodies attacking the thyroid tissue. However, the two antibodies implicated in Hashi's are TPOab and TGab. Where do they come from? Does this anti-gluten antibody somehow "morph" in to either TPOab or TGab or both? Is it one of these two (TPO and TG) that is similar to gluten? If so, which one? TPO is an enzyme, and TG is the protein precursor to thyroid hormones...TPO's molecular structure is much different from TG's. Sorry, but these puzzle pieces just will not fall together in my mind."
I will say it: I think Dr K's therory in the book is backwards, at least most of the time.
The opposite direction has been a thought for years on 'leaky gut' issues with Hashimoto and 'regular' hypothyroid patients. In the case of Hashi they might have Hashi antibodies first. You dont need antibodies of any type to have 'leaky gut', not necessarily an antibody issue. Slow digestive tract from hypo can be the issue and leaky gut and or gluten intolerance can follow. Even small seeds, nut particles and other (I forget) can trigger 'leaky gut' as this stuff sits and rots in the intestines of some people with slow digestion - people that are currently or were hypo at the time it started. This theory just states its possible in some cases. So, to say this theory in reverse is what causes Hashi, more evidence against it.
Since this is the general idea the book coveys -(from your post above):
"#2 - Gluten escapes the gut, and anti-gluten antibodies start on their search and destroy mission. However, they get confused by thyroid tissue and "decide" to attack that instead, and thus "Hashi's is born". So, so far we have anti-gluten antibodies attacking the thyroid tissue. However, the two antibodies implicated in Hashi's are TPOab and TGab. Where do they come from? Does this anti-gluten antibody somehow "morph" in to either TPOab or TGab or both? Is it one of these two (TPO and TG) that is similar to gluten? If so, which one? TPO is an enzyme, and TG is the protein precursor to thyroid hormones...TPO's molecular structure is much different from TG's. Sorry, but these puzzle pieces just will not fall together in my mind."
I will say it: I think Dr K's therory in the book is backwards, at least most of the time.
The opposite direction has been a thought for years on 'leaky gut' issues with Hashimoto and 'regular' hypothyroid patients. In the case of Hashi they might have Hashi antibodies first. You dont need antibodies of any type to have 'leaky gut', not necessarily an antibody issue. Slow digestive tract from hypo can be the issue and leaky gut and or gluten intolerance can follow. Even small seeds, nut particles and other (I forget) can trigger 'leaky gut' as this stuff sits and rots in the intestines of some people with slow digestion - people that are currently or were hypo at the time it started. This theory just states its possible in some cases. So, to say this theory in reverse is what causes Hashi, more evidence against it.
The book really has everything to do with autoimmune thyroid disease, especially Hashi's. Even Graves' is barely mentioned. Not any discussion of goiter/nodules, except as symptoms of Hashi's.
And, I think you hit the nail on the head about the title...the ranges need updating (they're wrong), and many doctors think that once a patient is "in range", their job is done. They make no adjustments for "personal range". And, I think, therein lies the answer to the question in the title in a vast majority of cases.
And, I think you hit the nail on the head about the title...the ranges need updating (they're wrong), and many doctors think that once a patient is "in range", their job is done. They make no adjustments for "personal range". And, I think, therein lies the answer to the question in the title in a vast majority of cases.
I though I'd give some actual examples as these related posts are getting pretty detailed for the common 'lurker' out there and even some regulars here.
Gluten issues/hypo/gut candida/ other bacterial overgrowth can all have related symptoms and can be intertwined, its easy for people to react and point at one without fully understanding what happened to them individually through an analytical approach.
Fact: Hypothyroid and Hashi hypo people often have slowed digestive systems when first Dx'ed with hypo, before treated with thyroid meds, (or in my case when T4 only med did not work very well). This is a hypo thyroid symptom. As years went by with hypo symptoms, new digestive symptoms occurred as an INDIRECT result from hypo. That is when I noticed certain foods started to create major discomfort and issues, digestion itself was becoming an issue. Now, when / if the digestive tract is slowed people can have reactions to gluten and other small particles in the gut, fact. I am not going to 'lable' or name this as a separate disorder such as gluten intollerance. I know I did not have Celiac antibodies. It was some form of bacteria in the gut and or intestines proven from a stupid sounding "morning saliva in a cup a water sink or float test". Its on the web , many places.
Purly coincidental I went to a highly recomended chiro for ongoing neck/ back pain (lack of T3 partially to blame) . Turns out he was another one of those holistic healers too. Well he knew some facts that aren't necessarily secrets. He asked about digestive issues on the new patient info sheet. He knew I was still hypo pointing to T4 med only. Told me to do the glass of water test for a week of consistent comparable results.
Turns out, I had it, failed the test every day. Taking probiotics while being gluten and sugar free, less carbs (while not 100%) for around 4 months greatly helped me with digestion and I later reintroduced wheat slowly, but cut most sweets forever. I still had hypo symptoms though on the T4, and still required my usual increase from Hashi per lab results at that time. So I cant say that T4 med absorption was increased at all in my case. A year after, I added T3, and no longer needed probiotics either, as T3 improved digestion by speeding up the process, thus, stuff (gluten and other small partices) no longer 'sat' there. I 'pass the water/ saliva test almost always to this day and I take NOTHING for my digestion.
So it can work in a vicious circle if someone has this and does not stop the cycle.
Important note: I am surprised I have not heard this Dr K mentioning gut Candida, (that was a question as I have not read the book). Candida, possibly for many hypos, is more to blame than gluten alone, as Candida gut growth is promoted by more than just gluten alone, and slow digestive tract is a big part of starting the cycle.
Closing note: If a slow digestive tract was the STARTING point of what I had, well that a was hypo issue to begin with, not a gluten issue to begin with in my case. I could blame gluten, but after figuring out this past mystery I know that gluten is not to blame, but became an associated 'byproduct' of the real issue.
Gluten issues/hypo/gut candida/ other bacterial overgrowth can all have related symptoms and can be intertwined, its easy for people to react and point at one without fully understanding what happened to them individually through an analytical approach.
Fact: Hypothyroid and Hashi hypo people often have slowed digestive systems when first Dx'ed with hypo, before treated with thyroid meds, (or in my case when T4 only med did not work very well). This is a hypo thyroid symptom. As years went by with hypo symptoms, new digestive symptoms occurred as an INDIRECT result from hypo. That is when I noticed certain foods started to create major discomfort and issues, digestion itself was becoming an issue. Now, when / if the digestive tract is slowed people can have reactions to gluten and other small particles in the gut, fact. I am not going to 'lable' or name this as a separate disorder such as gluten intollerance. I know I did not have Celiac antibodies. It was some form of bacteria in the gut and or intestines proven from a stupid sounding "morning saliva in a cup a water sink or float test". Its on the web , many places.
Purly coincidental I went to a highly recomended chiro for ongoing neck/ back pain (lack of T3 partially to blame) . Turns out he was another one of those holistic healers too. Well he knew some facts that aren't necessarily secrets. He asked about digestive issues on the new patient info sheet. He knew I was still hypo pointing to T4 med only. Told me to do the glass of water test for a week of consistent comparable results.
Turns out, I had it, failed the test every day. Taking probiotics while being gluten and sugar free, less carbs (while not 100%) for around 4 months greatly helped me with digestion and I later reintroduced wheat slowly, but cut most sweets forever. I still had hypo symptoms though on the T4, and still required my usual increase from Hashi per lab results at that time. So I cant say that T4 med absorption was increased at all in my case. A year after, I added T3, and no longer needed probiotics either, as T3 improved digestion by speeding up the process, thus, stuff (gluten and other small partices) no longer 'sat' there. I 'pass the water/ saliva test almost always to this day and I take NOTHING for my digestion.
So it can work in a vicious circle if someone has this and does not stop the cycle.
Important note: I am surprised I have not heard this Dr K mentioning gut Candida, (that was a question as I have not read the book). Candida, possibly for many hypos, is more to blame than gluten alone, as Candida gut growth is promoted by more than just gluten alone, and slow digestive tract is a big part of starting the cycle.
Closing note: If a slow digestive tract was the STARTING point of what I had, well that a was hypo issue to begin with, not a gluten issue to begin with in my case. I could blame gluten, but after figuring out this past mystery I know that gluten is not to blame, but became an associated 'byproduct' of the real issue.
I'm gonna get off of the "gluten" topic altogether..and would like the answer to the question that is the title of the post...Why do I still have thyroid symptoms, if my labs are normal????
I do understand that if the free's are "out of range" even when they are in range, symptoms will still occur, but most professionals don't realize this and they sort of "shove" the patient's concerns under the rug but only leaving the patient frustrated and not knowing what to do next!....
Also, does this book talk about other causes besides "hashi's" such as goiter/nodules that will cause the patient to have to undergo surgery to remove the thyroid and become hypo..forever???
I do understand that if the free's are "out of range" even when they are in range, symptoms will still occur, but most professionals don't realize this and they sort of "shove" the patient's concerns under the rug but only leaving the patient frustrated and not knowing what to do next!....
Also, does this book talk about other causes besides "hashi's" such as goiter/nodules that will cause the patient to have to undergo surgery to remove the thyroid and become hypo..forever???
One more thought to chew on as you go about your Sunday...great food for thought if you have something mindless to do, like housecleaning!
If gluten is the cause of Hashi's, then why are we also more likely to get lupus, RA, pernicious anemia, etc. What's the commection between Hashi's and those? Seems to me you have to go back further than gluten, perhaps to a genetic predisposition???
I don't know...just getting some of my questions out there that I didn't find the answers to in the book.
If gluten is the cause of Hashi's, then why are we also more likely to get lupus, RA, pernicious anemia, etc. What's the commection between Hashi's and those? Seems to me you have to go back further than gluten, perhaps to a genetic predisposition???
I don't know...just getting some of my questions out there that I didn't find the answers to in the book.
Wow, just when you think it's safe to actually sleep an eight-hour night...I agree with Emily, wonderful discussion. I'd like to thank dplieman and yallolory for making such a great contribution to this thread and putting so much effort into it. I don't know you guys like I know some of the other members on this thread, but I've really learned a lot from your posts and enjoyed your input. Okay, no more mushy stuff!
I think dplieman is right, K never says the word "cure". However, he does repeatedly suggest that following his protocol treats the autoimmune (antibodies) aspect of this disease where conventional medicine only treats symptoms. His claims stop just short of "cure"
I agree that Moose brings up some very good points. A g/f diet is absolutely beneficial for a number of people, WHETHER OR NOT they have Hashi's and IF they have gut issues that a g/f diet is much more likely to address.
Yallolory...yes, very interestingt...are the gluten molecule and thyroid "tissue" very similar molecularly? I don't know, but I do have trouble with the "similar" concept for a number of reasons.
#1 - Antibodies are VERY specific...one antigen (protein), one antibody. Your smallpox antibodies don't protect you from polio and vice versa. More to the point, researchers "guess" every year about what this year's flu virus (antigen) is going to be. However, the flu virus is constantly mutating, but it's still a flu virus. However, if the flu antigen is not EXACTLY the same as researchers predict, then it is of limited effectiveness since your antibodies don't "recognize" the mutated virus as flu. This is the first major disconnection for me in K's theory...when it comes to antibodies, "similar" just doesn't cut it.
#2 - Gluten escapes the gut, and anti-gluten antibodies start on their search and destroy mission. However, they get confused by thyroid tissue and "decide" to attack that instead, and thus "Hashi's is born". So, so far we have anti-gluten antibodies attacking the thyroid tissue. However, the two antibodies implicated in Hashi's are TPOab and TGab. Where do they come from? Does this anti-gluten antibody somehow "morph" in to either TPOab or TGab or both? Is it one of these two (TPO and TG) that is similar to gluten? If so, which one? TPO is an enzyme, and TG is the protein precursor to thyroid hormones...TPO's molecular structure is much different from TG's. Sorry, but these puzzle pieces just will not fall together in my mind.
#3 - TPOab and TGab are both thyroid antibodies, yet TPOab's don't attack TG, and TGab's don't attack TPO. Yet, anti-gluten antibodies attack one or the other???
Yallolory, I like your "divide and conquer" idea, but I'm quite sure that if there were studies to prove the gluten/Hashi connection, they would not be buried in a bibliography that could choke a horse...they'd be proclaimed loud and clear in the main text of the book, complete with statistics, with a giant footnote to the original study. K wouldn't have to rely on testimonials if he had proof. The same holds true of any studies proving the effectiveness of his treatment. Why doesn't he even publish his own performance results?
I think dplieman is right, K never says the word "cure". However, he does repeatedly suggest that following his protocol treats the autoimmune (antibodies) aspect of this disease where conventional medicine only treats symptoms. His claims stop just short of "cure"
I agree that Moose brings up some very good points. A g/f diet is absolutely beneficial for a number of people, WHETHER OR NOT they have Hashi's and IF they have gut issues that a g/f diet is much more likely to address.
Yallolory...yes, very interestingt...are the gluten molecule and thyroid "tissue" very similar molecularly? I don't know, but I do have trouble with the "similar" concept for a number of reasons.
#1 - Antibodies are VERY specific...one antigen (protein), one antibody. Your smallpox antibodies don't protect you from polio and vice versa. More to the point, researchers "guess" every year about what this year's flu virus (antigen) is going to be. However, the flu virus is constantly mutating, but it's still a flu virus. However, if the flu antigen is not EXACTLY the same as researchers predict, then it is of limited effectiveness since your antibodies don't "recognize" the mutated virus as flu. This is the first major disconnection for me in K's theory...when it comes to antibodies, "similar" just doesn't cut it.
#2 - Gluten escapes the gut, and anti-gluten antibodies start on their search and destroy mission. However, they get confused by thyroid tissue and "decide" to attack that instead, and thus "Hashi's is born". So, so far we have anti-gluten antibodies attacking the thyroid tissue. However, the two antibodies implicated in Hashi's are TPOab and TGab. Where do they come from? Does this anti-gluten antibody somehow "morph" in to either TPOab or TGab or both? Is it one of these two (TPO and TG) that is similar to gluten? If so, which one? TPO is an enzyme, and TG is the protein precursor to thyroid hormones...TPO's molecular structure is much different from TG's. Sorry, but these puzzle pieces just will not fall together in my mind.
#3 - TPOab and TGab are both thyroid antibodies, yet TPOab's don't attack TG, and TGab's don't attack TPO. Yet, anti-gluten antibodies attack one or the other???
Yallolory, I like your "divide and conquer" idea, but I'm quite sure that if there were studies to prove the gluten/Hashi connection, they would not be buried in a bibliography that could choke a horse...they'd be proclaimed loud and clear in the main text of the book, complete with statistics, with a giant footnote to the original study. K wouldn't have to rely on testimonials if he had proof. The same holds true of any studies proving the effectiveness of his treatment. Why doesn't he even publish his own performance results?
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