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"Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? When My Lab Tests are Normal" by Datis Kharrazian
An open discussion of the book...
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
COMMUNITY LEADER
Very good points LazyMoose and this is exactly what we've been trying to get across.
Not every symptom we have is thyroid related, no matter how much we'd like to blame the thyroid for them.
One can have hypothyroidism and one can have digestive issues; they need not be related. As you said, if there are no antibodies, there will be no attacks.
I have read a bit that gluten is related to candida; sounds like that may have been your issue - or at least part of it.
Could it be that clearing up your digestive issues, helped the thyroid med absorb better? And yes, we know thyroid antibodies can drop; we also know they can go into remission, but will never go completely away.
Not every symptom we have is thyroid related, no matter how much we'd like to blame the thyroid for them.
One can have hypothyroidism and one can have digestive issues; they need not be related. As you said, if there are no antibodies, there will be no attacks.
I have read a bit that gluten is related to candida; sounds like that may have been your issue - or at least part of it.
Could it be that clearing up your digestive issues, helped the thyroid med absorb better? And yes, we know thyroid antibodies can drop; we also know they can go into remission, but will never go completely away.
I'd like to make a SIMPLE comment here that is constantly missing from all the G/F posting this month.
The way I see it is its possible in people that these symptoms although very similar to thyroid/Hashimoto are actually separate in many cases. And this Dr K is just making people assume its all from thyroid antibodies caused from gluten. We must not forget that hypo symptom can mimic other issues unrelated to the thyroid. So a hypo thyroid person can have symptoms from thyroid and other, while blaming it all on thyroid malfunction.
People with Hashimoto can remove a food from their diet and they do feel better, we all know this. And the symptoms may have been relieved even if they WERE NOT hypothyroid. So how can anyone automatically claim this is even a thyroid issue? Certain foods can make the whole body weak in some people, regaurdless of what name we slap on it. And the thyroid is a very touchy organ in the body.
I went G/F a couple years ago to clear up digestive issues (gut bacterial overgrowth), it was temporay and helped. The symptoms that went away were several and digestive only.. Although digestive issues can be from hypo, not all are. My known Hashimoto symptoms remained, but digestively I was way better. My antibodies did not change. A year after I added T3 and digestive improved more. So my digestive issues were the source of two issues, not one.
On another note: A family member who had hypothyroid labs (but not Hashimoto antibodies at all) as well as a slew of similar hypo symptoms felt better after going G/F. Lost weight, brain fog cleared, and hypo labs improved. This person never had Hashimoto antibodies to begin with, she did have , per labs, 'regular' hypothyroid, and it was a temporary condition the whole time - no antibodies developed, no antibodies to blame. The fact that 'regular' hypothyroid (non-hashi ) can be temporary should not be new info to people.
So who is to say one with Hashimotos symptoms cant also have similar symptoms that are temporary adding to there declining heath that are actually from from something else.? Happened to me. And if their thyroid antibodies did drop (not in me), well we know this just happens, even to people that arent G/F.
The way I see it is its possible in people that these symptoms although very similar to thyroid/Hashimoto are actually separate in many cases. And this Dr K is just making people assume its all from thyroid antibodies caused from gluten. We must not forget that hypo symptom can mimic other issues unrelated to the thyroid. So a hypo thyroid person can have symptoms from thyroid and other, while blaming it all on thyroid malfunction.
People with Hashimoto can remove a food from their diet and they do feel better, we all know this. And the symptoms may have been relieved even if they WERE NOT hypothyroid. So how can anyone automatically claim this is even a thyroid issue? Certain foods can make the whole body weak in some people, regaurdless of what name we slap on it. And the thyroid is a very touchy organ in the body.
I went G/F a couple years ago to clear up digestive issues (gut bacterial overgrowth), it was temporay and helped. The symptoms that went away were several and digestive only.. Although digestive issues can be from hypo, not all are. My known Hashimoto symptoms remained, but digestively I was way better. My antibodies did not change. A year after I added T3 and digestive improved more. So my digestive issues were the source of two issues, not one.
On another note: A family member who had hypothyroid labs (but not Hashimoto antibodies at all) as well as a slew of similar hypo symptoms felt better after going G/F. Lost weight, brain fog cleared, and hypo labs improved. This person never had Hashimoto antibodies to begin with, she did have , per labs, 'regular' hypothyroid, and it was a temporary condition the whole time - no antibodies developed, no antibodies to blame. The fact that 'regular' hypothyroid (non-hashi ) can be temporary should not be new info to people.
So who is to say one with Hashimotos symptoms cant also have similar symptoms that are temporary adding to there declining heath that are actually from from something else.? Happened to me. And if their thyroid antibodies did drop (not in me), well we know this just happens, even to people that arent G/F.
Wow - great discussion! Just wanted to add to keep in mind that this is a support forum, and that not one thing will work for everyone, and that people need to take ALL of it in, process it, and come to a decision that is best for them.
:)
Emily
:)
Emily
As an additional side note:
Nobody can EVER remove a disclaimer stateing that this may not work for you, because the reality of it is that we are all different, even if you have a study of 2000 people and it was successful for all 2000 people, there is ALWAYS the chance that 1 in 2500 is not successful but they didn't find that because it wasn't 2500.... Nothing is 100% except death.. I dont' say taxes because some people find loop holes :)
Nobody can EVER remove a disclaimer stateing that this may not work for you, because the reality of it is that we are all different, even if you have a study of 2000 people and it was successful for all 2000 people, there is ALWAYS the chance that 1 in 2500 is not successful but they didn't find that because it wasn't 2500.... Nothing is 100% except death.. I dont' say taxes because some people find loop holes :)
Yallolory - I think you have made some very valid points and actually gotten to the heart of what this book is "really" about and what we are all looking for "feeling the best we can, in whatever way that might be.
ALL - I think we all to some degree understand that we have an incureable condition, but the bottom line is finding the ways in which we can feel good with it, and that seems to be different for all of us and require our own experimentation for what works for us...
And i'm going out on a limb making this next statement and expect some persecution for it, but in my opinion, the same concept holds true for the controversial "treatment" of FT3, there are just as many scientific studies that has proven to not work as they have proven to work, to me this just shows again how we are all different and require different methods and experimentation to feel the best that we can. We are pushing FT3 labs and treatment on this website like it is holy, it is almost a "requirement" to successful treatment "and maybe that is true" FOR SOME, but it is just as controversial as any other treatment out there "this is why it is not well known in mainstream medicine"
I've read posts where people have FOUGHT to get FT3 treatment based on the recommendation of people on this forum only to be dissapointed and felt let down because it didn't improve their symptoms yet they fought so hard to get it with a hope that this is the missing piece to their "i still have symptoms on my thyroid meds" puzzle. this clears the way for people to start reaching for books like Dr. K's in a desperate attempt to finally get an answer because SOMEONE feels good with this condition, somewhere, but it's so diverse that what works for them doesn't work for us and we are back at square 1.
I think if any lessons learned with this particular subject in its entirety is that, we are all different, what works for us might not work for others and that we can only make statements of our own personal experience, how it has helped us, with our own personal interpretations of the information we have read and allow people to take each thing into consideration, experiment with their own ideas, thoughts and interpretations without pressure to follow someone elses "treatment" and only give our information as a guide or a tool to take into consideration in the whole picture of things.
ALL - I think we all to some degree understand that we have an incureable condition, but the bottom line is finding the ways in which we can feel good with it, and that seems to be different for all of us and require our own experimentation for what works for us...
And i'm going out on a limb making this next statement and expect some persecution for it, but in my opinion, the same concept holds true for the controversial "treatment" of FT3, there are just as many scientific studies that has proven to not work as they have proven to work, to me this just shows again how we are all different and require different methods and experimentation to feel the best that we can. We are pushing FT3 labs and treatment on this website like it is holy, it is almost a "requirement" to successful treatment "and maybe that is true" FOR SOME, but it is just as controversial as any other treatment out there "this is why it is not well known in mainstream medicine"
I've read posts where people have FOUGHT to get FT3 treatment based on the recommendation of people on this forum only to be dissapointed and felt let down because it didn't improve their symptoms yet they fought so hard to get it with a hope that this is the missing piece to their "i still have symptoms on my thyroid meds" puzzle. this clears the way for people to start reaching for books like Dr. K's in a desperate attempt to finally get an answer because SOMEONE feels good with this condition, somewhere, but it's so diverse that what works for them doesn't work for us and we are back at square 1.
I think if any lessons learned with this particular subject in its entirety is that, we are all different, what works for us might not work for others and that we can only make statements of our own personal experience, how it has helped us, with our own personal interpretations of the information we have read and allow people to take each thing into consideration, experiment with their own ideas, thoughts and interpretations without pressure to follow someone elses "treatment" and only give our information as a guide or a tool to take into consideration in the whole picture of things.
COMMUNITY LEADER
I believe you are correct that Dr K does not claim to "cure" Hashi's -- that statement was made by others in other threads.
Another of the points made is that if a protocol were all that fantastic, one would be able to stand by ones opinion, without the number of disclaimers as there are in the book. One of his major disclaimers, is that if the protocol doesn't work, the thyroid was already damaged too much when the patient came to him.
We've had people claim that "my thyroid is working again". You can't make a non working thyroid, suddenly begin to work. Maybe there's still some hormone leaking for something that makes it appear that the thyroid is working.
No one is saying that you should NEVER go g/f. There certainly are instances in which it's absolutely appropriate. Our point is that it's not for everyone, as has been touted.
I think you are very wise in your decision to "eat healthy" and avoid white flour and sugar. That's good advice for all of us. In fact, I do the same. I rarely eat foods with either white flour or sugar; I even eliminate regular pasta and white rice; I've gone to whole grain pasta and brown rice instead.
I have a feeling that the T3 med is going to make a huge difference for you. It certainly did for me, although, once again -- it's not for everyone and should only be given when needed.
Another of the points made is that if a protocol were all that fantastic, one would be able to stand by ones opinion, without the number of disclaimers as there are in the book. One of his major disclaimers, is that if the protocol doesn't work, the thyroid was already damaged too much when the patient came to him.
We've had people claim that "my thyroid is working again". You can't make a non working thyroid, suddenly begin to work. Maybe there's still some hormone leaking for something that makes it appear that the thyroid is working.
No one is saying that you should NEVER go g/f. There certainly are instances in which it's absolutely appropriate. Our point is that it's not for everyone, as has been touted.
I think you are very wise in your decision to "eat healthy" and avoid white flour and sugar. That's good advice for all of us. In fact, I do the same. I rarely eat foods with either white flour or sugar; I even eliminate regular pasta and white rice; I've gone to whole grain pasta and brown rice instead.
I have a feeling that the T3 med is going to make a huge difference for you. It certainly did for me, although, once again -- it's not for everyone and should only be given when needed.
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