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"Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? When My Lab Tests are Normal" by Datis Kharrazian
An open discussion of the book...
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
COMMUNITY LEADER
If it's the anti-gluten antibodies that attack the thyroid, where do the thyroid peroxidase antibodies and thyroglobulin antibodies come in? and why are they the ones used to diagnose Hashimoto's, rather than the anti-gluten antibodies? According to everything I've ever read/researched, the antibodies are very particular about what they attack i.e. thyroid antibodies only attack the thyroid, RA antibodies attack the joints/muscles, etc.
According to the theory that it's the gluten antibodies that attack the thyroid, I, then, should not have Hashimoto's since I don't have those antibodies.
The only autoimmune that I know of, in which antibodies attack all organs is lupus.
According to the theory that it's the gluten antibodies that attack the thyroid, I, then, should not have Hashimoto's since I don't have those antibodies.
The only autoimmune that I know of, in which antibodies attack all organs is lupus.
I'm doing some extensive research on any connection between hashimotos and gluten "specifically"
I"m still researching but wanted to chime in on Barbs question of "not having anti-gluten antibodies" because i actually JUST read this, I've found this "statement" so far.. not saying it is a scientific fact or that i agree with it, and i haven't found any information YET to discount or otherwise "prove" this but, this is the reason they give for your specific question of not having anti-gluten antibodies but still have gluten intolerance..
**** In Th1-dominant conditions, the Th2 system is suppressed. The Th2 system is the part of the immune system responsible for producing antibodies. When the Th2 system is severely depressed, the body’s ability to produce antibodies is impaired. The levels may be so low that they won’t show up on a test. So, even if you have gluten intolerance, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative if you have Th1-dominant Hashimoto’s*****
I"m still researching but wanted to chime in on Barbs question of "not having anti-gluten antibodies" because i actually JUST read this, I've found this "statement" so far.. not saying it is a scientific fact or that i agree with it, and i haven't found any information YET to discount or otherwise "prove" this but, this is the reason they give for your specific question of not having anti-gluten antibodies but still have gluten intolerance..
**** In Th1-dominant conditions, the Th2 system is suppressed. The Th2 system is the part of the immune system responsible for producing antibodies. When the Th2 system is severely depressed, the body’s ability to produce antibodies is impaired. The levels may be so low that they won’t show up on a test. So, even if you have gluten intolerance, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative if you have Th1-dominant Hashimoto’s*****
COMMUNITY LEADER
But I have neither gluten antibodies, nor gluten intolerance. Besides, that wasn't my question.
My question was - since I don't have gluten antibodies, why would I have Hashi's, if it's gluten antibodies that cause it? Why do we even need to test for TPOab and TGab?
My question was - since I don't have gluten antibodies, why would I have Hashi's, if it's gluten antibodies that cause it? Why do we even need to test for TPOab and TGab?
Thank you for being the first to make any attempt to start a dialogue on this subject. It's a breath of fresh air that I need right about now.
You bring up a very good point...it's extremely important when discussing this subject to distinguish between full-blown, autoimmune celiac and non-celiac gluten intolerance (no antibodies). Celiac and gluten intolerance used to be used interchangably, but with the recent popularity of g/f diets, they have become quite distinct conditions.
You are correct about testing. A positive antibody test is confirmation of celiac, but a negative antibody test does not rule it out. Small intestine biopsy is the only way to rule out celiac completely.
Is your quote from the book (page #?), some other source, paraphrasing? Some terminology aside that I'd prefer not to use, I follow the quote until the last sentence, "So, even if you have gluten intolerance, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative if you have Th1-dominant Hashimoto’s." The sentence should read, "So, even if you have CELIAC, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative." By definition, celiac comes with antibodies, non-celiac gluten intolerance does not. There is no test (except elimintion/challenge, and that has its own deficiencies) for non-celiac gluten intolerance. Also, the antibodies may be falsely negative regardless of your Hashi's status.
You bring up a very good point...it's extremely important when discussing this subject to distinguish between full-blown, autoimmune celiac and non-celiac gluten intolerance (no antibodies). Celiac and gluten intolerance used to be used interchangably, but with the recent popularity of g/f diets, they have become quite distinct conditions.
You are correct about testing. A positive antibody test is confirmation of celiac, but a negative antibody test does not rule it out. Small intestine biopsy is the only way to rule out celiac completely.
Is your quote from the book (page #?), some other source, paraphrasing? Some terminology aside that I'd prefer not to use, I follow the quote until the last sentence, "So, even if you have gluten intolerance, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative if you have Th1-dominant Hashimoto’s." The sentence should read, "So, even if you have CELIAC, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative." By definition, celiac comes with antibodies, non-celiac gluten intolerance does not. There is no test (except elimintion/challenge, and that has its own deficiencies) for non-celiac gluten intolerance. Also, the antibodies may be falsely negative regardless of your Hashi's status.
From what i've read so far "and i'm just posting as i go"
It's possible to have gluten intolerance and it not show up on a test, some of the most common symptoms of gluten intolerance is Excessive fatigue, depression and weight gain.. Which obviously have a close resemblence to hypothyroid symptoms and also these symptoms that persist even with treatment and "in range lab values" I'm not stateing that you have it, i'm just stateing this because i definitely question my own susceptibility to this and in my opinion for myself is worth further investigation.
I didn't read "so far" that gluten antibodies cause hashimotos. What i have read on Page 28 is "quote - Although no hard and fast rules exist in regard to what triggers an autoimmune disease, there do seem to be certain physiological conditions that can set the stage for Hashimoto’s. These include gluten intolerance, estrogen surges, insulin resistance, polycystic ovary syndrome, vitamin D deficiency, environmental toxicity, chronic infections and inflammation, and genetic susceptibility to the condition - unquote"
It further goes to state and i'm just paraphrasing here that the molecular struction of gluten closely resembles the thyroid gland "i by no means am a molecular biologist" sounds like an interesting job however :) I can't even begin to discount or credit that statement, i can tell you i'll definitely tear it apart, break it down piece by piece as far as i have to in order to find out if in fact "gluten has the same molecular structure as the thyroid gland"
with that said, and i'm paraphrasing again, i read that gluten doesn't CAUSE Hashimotos but because it closely resembles the thyroid gland then our "already autoimmune disease Hashimotos attacks the "gut leaked" gluten mistaking it for "thyroid tissue" creating inflammation similar to the attack of our thyroid.
My interpretation is that gluten acts like a thyroid tissue in the system and the autoimmune system attacks it just as it does thyroid tissue.
It's possible to have gluten intolerance and it not show up on a test, some of the most common symptoms of gluten intolerance is Excessive fatigue, depression and weight gain.. Which obviously have a close resemblence to hypothyroid symptoms and also these symptoms that persist even with treatment and "in range lab values" I'm not stateing that you have it, i'm just stateing this because i definitely question my own susceptibility to this and in my opinion for myself is worth further investigation.
I didn't read "so far" that gluten antibodies cause hashimotos. What i have read on Page 28 is "quote - Although no hard and fast rules exist in regard to what triggers an autoimmune disease, there do seem to be certain physiological conditions that can set the stage for Hashimoto’s. These include gluten intolerance, estrogen surges, insulin resistance, polycystic ovary syndrome, vitamin D deficiency, environmental toxicity, chronic infections and inflammation, and genetic susceptibility to the condition - unquote"
It further goes to state and i'm just paraphrasing here that the molecular struction of gluten closely resembles the thyroid gland "i by no means am a molecular biologist" sounds like an interesting job however :) I can't even begin to discount or credit that statement, i can tell you i'll definitely tear it apart, break it down piece by piece as far as i have to in order to find out if in fact "gluten has the same molecular structure as the thyroid gland"
with that said, and i'm paraphrasing again, i read that gluten doesn't CAUSE Hashimotos but because it closely resembles the thyroid gland then our "already autoimmune disease Hashimotos attacks the "gut leaked" gluten mistaking it for "thyroid tissue" creating inflammation similar to the attack of our thyroid.
My interpretation is that gluten acts like a thyroid tissue in the system and the autoimmune system attacks it just as it does thyroid tissue.
"Gluten intolerance" NEVER shows up on a test. Only full-blown autoimmune celiac disease shows up on a test.
I totally support "further investigation", in depth, of anything you suspect might be an issue for you.
I think the operative phrase in your quote is "...no hard and fast rules exist in regard to what triggers an autoimmune disease...", i.e. the cause(s) and precipitating factor(s) are unknown.
Yes, one of my big questions concerns gluten having similar molecular structure to the thyroid gland. However, I have to ask that if anti-gluten antibodies somehow "morph" into thyroid antibodies (TPOab and TGab), then which has a similar structure to gluten, TPO or TG? It's an important point since some of us with Hashi's are TPOab positive, some TGab positive, and some both. Does this only apply to some of us???
"gluten doesn't CAUSE Hashimotos but because it closely resembles the thyroid gland then our "already autoimmune disease Hashimotos attacks the "gut leaked" gluten mistaking it for "thyroid tissue" creating inflammation similar to the attack of our thyroid. " I think you misread...K's theory is that it's the other way round...the anti-gluten antibodies leak out of the gut, and because thyroid "tissue" is "similar" to gluten, the anti-gluten antibodies somehow "become "either TPOab or TGab (or both...how's that possible since TPO and TG have much different molecular structures???). Anyway, this is a very important point...K says that the anti-gluten antibodies that :leak" out of the gut attack thyroid "tissue", not vice versa.
I totally support "further investigation", in depth, of anything you suspect might be an issue for you.
I think the operative phrase in your quote is "...no hard and fast rules exist in regard to what triggers an autoimmune disease...", i.e. the cause(s) and precipitating factor(s) are unknown.
Yes, one of my big questions concerns gluten having similar molecular structure to the thyroid gland. However, I have to ask that if anti-gluten antibodies somehow "morph" into thyroid antibodies (TPOab and TGab), then which has a similar structure to gluten, TPO or TG? It's an important point since some of us with Hashi's are TPOab positive, some TGab positive, and some both. Does this only apply to some of us???
"gluten doesn't CAUSE Hashimotos but because it closely resembles the thyroid gland then our "already autoimmune disease Hashimotos attacks the "gut leaked" gluten mistaking it for "thyroid tissue" creating inflammation similar to the attack of our thyroid. " I think you misread...K's theory is that it's the other way round...the anti-gluten antibodies leak out of the gut, and because thyroid "tissue" is "similar" to gluten, the anti-gluten antibodies somehow "become "either TPOab or TGab (or both...how's that possible since TPO and TG have much different molecular structures???). Anyway, this is a very important point...K says that the anti-gluten antibodies that :leak" out of the gut attack thyroid "tissue", not vice versa.
Page 29 “Quote” Every time undigested gluten mistakenly slips into the bloodstream, the immune system responds by destroying it for removal. That’s because gluten doesn’t belong in the bloodstream but gets there through overly permeable intestinal walls, or a “leaky gut” “unquote”
My interpretation of this statement is that, undigested gluten mistakenly slips into the blood stream, “the immune system” responds by destroying “it” (undigested gluten) for removal.. a reaction of the immune system because it sees “gluten” as the offender.. not gluten morphing and attacking thyroid tissue but rather the immune system attacking the gluten…
My interpretation of this statement is that, undigested gluten mistakenly slips into the blood stream, “the immune system” responds by destroying “it” (undigested gluten) for removal.. a reaction of the immune system because it sees “gluten” as the offender.. not gluten morphing and attacking thyroid tissue but rather the immune system attacking the gluten…
This is kind of off the subject matter. I have not read the book. On the subject of 'leaky gut', there is an actual test for this not acknowledged by medical docs, but aimed at holistic docs.
***Does the book even mention a leaky gut test, or just make the assumption that you have it, if gluten makes you ill?***
My point is leaky gut is more rare than gluten intolerance and even full blown Celiac. It was though in the past to be many times completely separate of Celiac. As in its more common to have one or the other than both.
And just so readers know the difference between Celiac - actual sharp digestive pain from gluten antibodies designating the intestine and Gluten Intolerance, which there is no test for but creates digestive discomfort from Gluten and low energy levels.
***Does the book even mention a leaky gut test, or just make the assumption that you have it, if gluten makes you ill?***
My point is leaky gut is more rare than gluten intolerance and even full blown Celiac. It was though in the past to be many times completely separate of Celiac. As in its more common to have one or the other than both.
And just so readers know the difference between Celiac - actual sharp digestive pain from gluten antibodies designating the intestine and Gluten Intolerance, which there is no test for but creates digestive discomfort from Gluten and low energy levels.
But the book says on p. 26 that a serum antibody test will confirm Hashi's, and that TPO ab is the most important. Sometimes a TG ab test is also necessary. So Hashi's is identified by those two tests and symptoms.
The book does say on p. 29 that undigested gluten gets into the bloodstream through a "leaky gut" and infers that even people with only gluten intolerance have an autoimmune system reaction, resulting in antibodies that attack the thyroid gland, and that "the problem may be one of mistaken identity". I have a big question as to what these gluten antibodies are supposed to be?
The autoimmune system is not producing TPO ab and TG ab to destroy gluten, so what is this undefined antibody that is supposed to be attacking gluten and then mistakenly attacking the thyroid tissue that is supposedly so similar in molecular structure?
The book does say on p. 29 that undigested gluten gets into the bloodstream through a "leaky gut" and infers that even people with only gluten intolerance have an autoimmune system reaction, resulting in antibodies that attack the thyroid gland, and that "the problem may be one of mistaken identity". I have a big question as to what these gluten antibodies are supposed to be?
The autoimmune system is not producing TPO ab and TG ab to destroy gluten, so what is this undefined antibody that is supposed to be attacking gluten and then mistakenly attacking the thyroid tissue that is supposedly so similar in molecular structure?
No, I 'm not saying K says gluten "morphs". K, in some way, thinks that the antibodies that attack gluten (gluten antibodies...and they DO attack the gluten, IF and only IFyou have autoimmune celiac, not just non-celiac gluten intolerance) somehow also attack thyroid tissue because it is "similar" to gluten. What K does not connect is how these gluten antibodies that "get confused" (a big case of anthropomorphism) cause Hashi's. Hashi's is caused by TPOab and TGab. So, how do these anti-gluten antibodies "morph" into TPOab and/or TGab??? And which molecule is similar to gluten? TPO or TG? These are major holes in his theory...I don't really expect you to answer this question since he hasn't answered it, just throwing out food for thought here.
I guess i should be more educated on TPO and TG antibodies "i definitely don't know much about it"
I was merely stateing my interpretations of what little i read..
so is TPO and TG antibodies what is responsible for attacking my thyroid?
If so, i guess what i was interpreting from what i read is that whatever it is that is attacking my thyroid gland is also responsible for attacking the gluten?? is that TPO and TG? can that attack "leaked gluten"? I don't know anything about gluten anti-bodies? i didn't think there was such a thing unless you have celiac disease?
I was merely stateing my interpretations of what little i read..
so is TPO and TG antibodies what is responsible for attacking my thyroid?
If so, i guess what i was interpreting from what i read is that whatever it is that is attacking my thyroid gland is also responsible for attacking the gluten?? is that TPO and TG? can that attack "leaked gluten"? I don't know anything about gluten anti-bodies? i didn't think there was such a thing unless you have celiac disease?
If you have Hashi's, TPOab and/or TGab are what ae attacking your thyroid. TPOab and TGab cannot attack gluten, leaked or otherwise...TPOab attack TPO only, and TGab attack TG only, they don't even attack each other If you have celiac disease, another kind of antibody, anti-gluten antibodies, attack the gluten and also destroy the little hairs in the small intestine that absorb nutrients, etc..
You are absolutely right...it's only if you have celiac disease that you have anti-gluten antibodies. This is why it does not make sense to apply K's theory to people who are non-celiac gluten intolerant, because they have no antibodies...this is exactly where K's theory loses it.
You are absolutely right...it's only if you have celiac disease that you have anti-gluten antibodies. This is why it does not make sense to apply K's theory to people who are non-celiac gluten intolerant, because they have no antibodies...this is exactly where K's theory loses it.
I realise that my posting has nothing to do with Hypothyroidism but personally I think Datis Kharrazian is a con artist who commercialises his practices (Holistic he says) for the purpose of wellness but basically to line his own pockets.
Here is one example.....http://drknews.com/archives/219.
In one of his books he claims that Heart Disease is a gut-immune-hormone disease??
Is he for real or just another 'quack out to make a fast buck?
I have read a lot of his blogs and find them to be 'evasive'.....and also at the end of each blog he takes NO responsibility for any of his blogs.
Is he like a few other so -called Holistic Doctors I can mention that have been refused to be registered with the American Medical Association for underhand practises as a Doctor?
Sorry Guys but I am sick to death of hearing this guys name, his cr@p he writes and him conning innocent sick people thinking he can 'cure them'
Gluten Intolerance is just that...an intolerance to Gluten.
Celiac Disease is an Autoimmune Disease that has antibodies that attack the gut and intestines.
Not necesarrily Gluten either......there can be many foods that the gut cannot tolerate with Celiac.
Hashimotos is also an Autoimmune Disease
Graves is an Autoimmune Disease.
All these diseases produce Antibodies and regardless of what you eat, when you eat, what you dont eat etc...those antibodies are there for life.
There is NO CURE
t
But to write an article stating that Heart Disease is a gut-immune-hormone disease is absolutely irresponsible and incorrect.
I'm just waiting for him to write an article stating that we have Cancer because we eat carrots or we dont eat carrots etc.
Sorry Guys but this guy is a no-no in my eyes who writes books (and I might add...makes a damn good living from it ) ..basically earning more than being a Chiropractor (which is what he really is) and conning people.
The last I knew ..Chiropractors dealt with the skeletal system.
Forgive me if I am wrong lol.
There are people who are gluten intolerant and also Celiacs but if I was one of them...I would suffer in pain rather than follow his advice.
I am NOT against Holistic practises or Holistic medicine and teaching but this guy is on a good roll to make a fast buck and a lot of people are being sucked in by his bull.
Here is one example.....http://drknews.com/archives/219.
In one of his books he claims that Heart Disease is a gut-immune-hormone disease??
Is he for real or just another 'quack out to make a fast buck?
I have read a lot of his blogs and find them to be 'evasive'.....and also at the end of each blog he takes NO responsibility for any of his blogs.
Is he like a few other so -called Holistic Doctors I can mention that have been refused to be registered with the American Medical Association for underhand practises as a Doctor?
Sorry Guys but I am sick to death of hearing this guys name, his cr@p he writes and him conning innocent sick people thinking he can 'cure them'
Gluten Intolerance is just that...an intolerance to Gluten.
Celiac Disease is an Autoimmune Disease that has antibodies that attack the gut and intestines.
Not necesarrily Gluten either......there can be many foods that the gut cannot tolerate with Celiac.
Hashimotos is also an Autoimmune Disease
Graves is an Autoimmune Disease.
All these diseases produce Antibodies and regardless of what you eat, when you eat, what you dont eat etc...those antibodies are there for life.
There is NO CURE
t
But to write an article stating that Heart Disease is a gut-immune-hormone disease is absolutely irresponsible and incorrect.
I'm just waiting for him to write an article stating that we have Cancer because we eat carrots or we dont eat carrots etc.
Sorry Guys but this guy is a no-no in my eyes who writes books (and I might add...makes a damn good living from it ) ..basically earning more than being a Chiropractor (which is what he really is) and conning people.
The last I knew ..Chiropractors dealt with the skeletal system.
Forgive me if I am wrong lol.
There are people who are gluten intolerant and also Celiacs but if I was one of them...I would suffer in pain rather than follow his advice.
I am NOT against Holistic practises or Holistic medicine and teaching but this guy is on a good roll to make a fast buck and a lot of people are being sucked in by his bull.
Smiler I definitely understand your frustration.. There are a lot of "books" out there claiming one thing or another eh?
Goolera thank you for the info on the antiobodies, that is what i thought but i wasn't completely sure.
Now if we step away from Dr. K's theory for a moment if we could and let me ask this:
This is a quote out of a news article at thyroid-about.com and it references the medical journal of digestive diseases.
"Quote" According to research reported on in the medical journal Digestive Diseases and Sciences, a significant number of patients with autoimmune thyroid disease also have celiac disease.
"...researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet." "Unquote"
my question is this: why are they stateing that gluten free can eliminate specifically "thyroid antibodies"???
Goolera thank you for the info on the antiobodies, that is what i thought but i wasn't completely sure.
Now if we step away from Dr. K's theory for a moment if we could and let me ask this:
This is a quote out of a news article at thyroid-about.com and it references the medical journal of digestive diseases.
"Quote" According to research reported on in the medical journal Digestive Diseases and Sciences, a significant number of patients with autoimmune thyroid disease also have celiac disease.
"...researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet." "Unquote"
my question is this: why are they stateing that gluten free can eliminate specifically "thyroid antibodies"???
"Quote" According to research reported on in the medical journal Digestive Diseases and Sciences, a significant number of patients with autoimmune thyroid disease also have celiac disease.
"...researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet." "Unquote"
- can you provide a link to this? If it disappears here, might have to PM me.
Thanks.
"...researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet." "Unquote"
- can you provide a link to this? If it disappears here, might have to PM me.
Thanks.
I found it here:
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/latestresearch/a/celiac.htm#ref
it is thyroid.about.c o m /cs/latestresearch/a/celiac.htm#ref
(i typed it this way in case my link doesn't work)
http://thyroid.about.com/cs/latestresearch/a/celiac.htm#ref
it is thyroid.about.c o m /cs/latestresearch/a/celiac.htm#ref
(i typed it this way in case my link doesn't work)
this is where all of this is coming from:
Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406
If anyone has this document in its entirety i would LOVE to read it... I only found an abstract that only gave a "partial" listing of the article without charging a fee of $47.
This particular abstract stops short of stating
(researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet)
I'm questioning if this particular statement is in the original document of Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406
Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406
If anyone has this document in its entirety i would LOVE to read it... I only found an abstract that only gave a "partial" listing of the article without charging a fee of $47.
This particular abstract stops short of stating
(researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet)
I'm questioning if this particular statement is in the original document of Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406
Here is another discussion about it that sounds pretty informative from someone who read the abstract.
The paper looks specifically at auto immune thyroiditis, so we can be pretty sure that all of the patients actually had this auto immune problem. It's not clear from the abstract whether they only followed the five or six patients with confirmed villous atrophy for anti thyroid antibodies during gluten elimination, probably that's all they did as these are the only ones with Italian box ticked coeliac disease.
What's not clear is how many of the anti endomisium antibody negative thyroiditis positive patients also had total villous atrophy from coeliac disease which was AEA negative. The AEA positive patients were not reported to have diarrhoea despite total villous atrophy. The AEA test misses LOTS of patients who could also have total villous atrophy. Who knows how many of these were in the thyroiditis group? There are then the patients with non antibody mediated damage to the gut and thyroid, who would not show antibodies to any of the classical coeliac antibody markers. Patients with tight junctions between their enterocytes which leak gut content derived proteins to their immune system can probably get gluten induced auto immune diseases without any macroscopic gut damage.
Ultimately this study still looked at the tip of an iceberg but, on that tip, gluten avoidance appears to reverse anti thyroid antibody production in 3-6 months. My feeling is that anyone with an autoimmune disease would do well to try a minimum of 6m of absolute and total gluten avoidance and then get re tested. Until people start trying this we'll not really know the answer to your query.
Measuring and normalising their vitamin D status might help too.
The paper looks specifically at auto immune thyroiditis, so we can be pretty sure that all of the patients actually had this auto immune problem. It's not clear from the abstract whether they only followed the five or six patients with confirmed villous atrophy for anti thyroid antibodies during gluten elimination, probably that's all they did as these are the only ones with Italian box ticked coeliac disease.
What's not clear is how many of the anti endomisium antibody negative thyroiditis positive patients also had total villous atrophy from coeliac disease which was AEA negative. The AEA positive patients were not reported to have diarrhoea despite total villous atrophy. The AEA test misses LOTS of patients who could also have total villous atrophy. Who knows how many of these were in the thyroiditis group? There are then the patients with non antibody mediated damage to the gut and thyroid, who would not show antibodies to any of the classical coeliac antibody markers. Patients with tight junctions between their enterocytes which leak gut content derived proteins to their immune system can probably get gluten induced auto immune diseases without any macroscopic gut damage.
Ultimately this study still looked at the tip of an iceberg but, on that tip, gluten avoidance appears to reverse anti thyroid antibody production in 3-6 months. My feeling is that anyone with an autoimmune disease would do well to try a minimum of 6m of absolute and total gluten avoidance and then get re tested. Until people start trying this we'll not really know the answer to your query.
Measuring and normalising their vitamin D status might help too.
I was frustrated by not being able to get more of that study for free, too. However, the abstract indicates that the scope of the study was to show a higher incidence of celiac among people with autoimmune thyroid disease, which is what we all know and accept, i.e. that once you have one autoimmune disease you are more apt to develop a second or third. I'd expect that to be true for Hashi's/lupus, Hashi's/RA also. As your reviewer states, it's unclear whether more than five or six patients was followed. Not the kind of limited population I want my science based on. This is also a 2000 study...I would have expected it to be expanded upon by now if these preliminary conclusions looked like they held any merit.
I also like your reviewer's statement, "Until people start trying this we'll not really know the answer to your query." Hmmm...I think our studies need a little more control than that. Actually, proving that a g/f diet will "reverse" (lower? eliminate?) thyroid antibodies seems a pretty simple task. Round up a bunch of subjects with celiac and Hashi's, make sure they're on a g/f diet (compliance can be monitored with bloodwork, and celiacs must eliminate gluten anyway)...seems to me after 3-6 months they ought to be Hashi's free, no?
Another question: If a group has both celiac and Hashi's, how do we know which they developed first?
One more observation: These subjects had full-blown autoimmune celiac. How, then, do we extrapolate from that that "anyone with an autoimmune disease (not just THYROID autoimmune, any autoimmune disease) ought to avoid gluten. Getting back to the book...you remember that K's contention that anti-gluten antibodies attack the thyroid because its molecular structure is "similar" to gluten. If that's true, where do other autoimmune diseases come from? Surely, the structures attacked in those diseases aren't "similar" to gluten also!
I see a couple of real leaps of faith in these "conclusions". I'd also like to know how the study was funded and why it hasn't been expanded upon...seems the g/f industry, which has expanded significantly with current g/f craze, would be more than willing to fund that kind of study. Ten years is a long time with no follow-up.
I also like your reviewer's statement, "Until people start trying this we'll not really know the answer to your query." Hmmm...I think our studies need a little more control than that. Actually, proving that a g/f diet will "reverse" (lower? eliminate?) thyroid antibodies seems a pretty simple task. Round up a bunch of subjects with celiac and Hashi's, make sure they're on a g/f diet (compliance can be monitored with bloodwork, and celiacs must eliminate gluten anyway)...seems to me after 3-6 months they ought to be Hashi's free, no?
Another question: If a group has both celiac and Hashi's, how do we know which they developed first?
One more observation: These subjects had full-blown autoimmune celiac. How, then, do we extrapolate from that that "anyone with an autoimmune disease (not just THYROID autoimmune, any autoimmune disease) ought to avoid gluten. Getting back to the book...you remember that K's contention that anti-gluten antibodies attack the thyroid because its molecular structure is "similar" to gluten. If that's true, where do other autoimmune diseases come from? Surely, the structures attacked in those diseases aren't "similar" to gluten also!
I see a couple of real leaps of faith in these "conclusions". I'd also like to know how the study was funded and why it hasn't been expanded upon...seems the g/f industry, which has expanded significantly with current g/f craze, would be more than willing to fund that kind of study. Ten years is a long time with no follow-up.
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I found a site that breaks "gluten intolerance" down into 3 distinct categories: Celiac Disease, Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity and a Wheat Allergy.
As we know, celiac is an autoimmune, in which antibodies are produced; non-celiac gluten sensitivity is a bit more vague because there are no antibodies. Wheat allergy has nothing to the the other two. In both celiac and non celiac sensitivity, symptoms come on over a period of time; if one has a wheat allergy, symptoms come on very swiftly. I used to work with a guy who had wheat allergy, but he did not have celiac......
On page 29, Dr K says "Every time undigested gluten mistakenly slips into the bloodstream, the immune system responds by destroying if for removal". Note that he merely says "the immune system" -- he does not tell us which of the antibodies actually destroy the gluten. We know that TPOab and TGab are both very specific and attack only the TPO and/or TG; therefore one would have to infer that it would be gluten antibodies that are attacking the gluten. Then comes the question: how can this happen if there are no gluten antibodies? Therefore, if there are no gluten antibodies, how can they attack the thyroid (remember because of the "similarity" to the gluten molecules). This then takes away a connection between the celiac and Hashi's, other than the fact that they are both autoimmune.
As goolarra pointed out, we can all agree that the likelihood of having celiac with Hashi's would be greater. Beyond that you have to have a real good imagination to come up with a link.
On page 29 and beyond, K references research done by Dr Kenneth Fine, MD. A quick search of him, tell me that he, also is a holistic doctor, who has his own "health institute" which can be found here:
http://intestinalhealth.org/
Apparently, Dr Fine, also has interests in Enterolab, which does genetic testing and is also promoted in K's book.
While this is a rather interesting subject, I still fail to see a connection between gluten intolerance/celiac and Hashi's; other than the "similar" molecular structure theory, which to my knowledge has not been proven and although I did a bit of research have been able to find nothing, except in Dr K's book.
As we know, celiac is an autoimmune, in which antibodies are produced; non-celiac gluten sensitivity is a bit more vague because there are no antibodies. Wheat allergy has nothing to the the other two. In both celiac and non celiac sensitivity, symptoms come on over a period of time; if one has a wheat allergy, symptoms come on very swiftly. I used to work with a guy who had wheat allergy, but he did not have celiac......
On page 29, Dr K says "Every time undigested gluten mistakenly slips into the bloodstream, the immune system responds by destroying if for removal". Note that he merely says "the immune system" -- he does not tell us which of the antibodies actually destroy the gluten. We know that TPOab and TGab are both very specific and attack only the TPO and/or TG; therefore one would have to infer that it would be gluten antibodies that are attacking the gluten. Then comes the question: how can this happen if there are no gluten antibodies? Therefore, if there are no gluten antibodies, how can they attack the thyroid (remember because of the "similarity" to the gluten molecules). This then takes away a connection between the celiac and Hashi's, other than the fact that they are both autoimmune.
As goolarra pointed out, we can all agree that the likelihood of having celiac with Hashi's would be greater. Beyond that you have to have a real good imagination to come up with a link.
On page 29 and beyond, K references research done by Dr Kenneth Fine, MD. A quick search of him, tell me that he, also is a holistic doctor, who has his own "health institute" which can be found here:
http://intestinalhealth.org/
Apparently, Dr Fine, also has interests in Enterolab, which does genetic testing and is also promoted in K's book.
While this is a rather interesting subject, I still fail to see a connection between gluten intolerance/celiac and Hashi's; other than the "similar" molecular structure theory, which to my knowledge has not been proven and although I did a bit of research have been able to find nothing, except in Dr K's book.
I agree with you...I think the book is a waste of time and that K has the potential of making a big profit. I only bought the book because it was being so ubiquitously recommended by one person on the forum. I bought it under protest as I had already investigated one of K's local disciples and really did not want to support K with my money.
On page 189 of the book, K is addressing his network of "qualified health care practioners", and says, "By applying these principles, you can supercharge your practice..." Pretty blatant, if you ask me. Conveniently (?), K also sells the remedies used in his protocol, many of which are unavailable from other sources. So, big bucks trading here.
In addition, there are a lot of inaccuracies in the book...a newbie reading this "thyroid bible" could come away with some very wrong ideas.
On page 190, K goes on to say, "I encourage patients and doctors to visit the website and post testimonials..." Once again, where are the studies? Testimonials are what you solicit when you have no facts to back your theories. I think a lot of people will be taken advantage of and K will probably get rich on this. I not only feel bad about that, but I sincerely regret that this forum is being used to some extent to further his cause.
On page 189 of the book, K is addressing his network of "qualified health care practioners", and says, "By applying these principles, you can supercharge your practice..." Pretty blatant, if you ask me. Conveniently (?), K also sells the remedies used in his protocol, many of which are unavailable from other sources. So, big bucks trading here.
In addition, there are a lot of inaccuracies in the book...a newbie reading this "thyroid bible" could come away with some very wrong ideas.
On page 190, K goes on to say, "I encourage patients and doctors to visit the website and post testimonials..." Once again, where are the studies? Testimonials are what you solicit when you have no facts to back your theories. I think a lot of people will be taken advantage of and K will probably get rich on this. I not only feel bad about that, but I sincerely regret that this forum is being used to some extent to further his cause.
as a relative newbie, what book would you guys recommend me instead of this one? I'd really value any suggestions any of you have for something I could buy that you think would give me a really good comprehensive overview.
I read this one and it seemed to make a lot of sense to me, as a newcomer to the subject, but did also leave me with lots of questions so I haven't as yet followed any of his recommendations, I'm still making my mind up.
Has anyone done much exploration of his 400+ references? There are 5 studies he references specifically linking gluten and thyroid but the titles don't sound that promising and I haven't yet attempted any of them. Is the Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406 study mentioned above one of them or is that something you've found separately?
I salute you goolarra for moving this discussion to a dedicated thread where everyone can explore the issues around this high profile book. And you dpleiman for your commitment to thoroughly investigating the subject. And everyone for sharing and caring so much.
x
I read this one and it seemed to make a lot of sense to me, as a newcomer to the subject, but did also leave me with lots of questions so I haven't as yet followed any of his recommendations, I'm still making my mind up.
Has anyone done much exploration of his 400+ references? There are 5 studies he references specifically linking gluten and thyroid but the titles don't sound that promising and I haven't yet attempted any of them. Is the Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406 study mentioned above one of them or is that something you've found separately?
I salute you goolarra for moving this discussion to a dedicated thread where everyone can explore the issues around this high profile book. And you dpleiman for your commitment to thoroughly investigating the subject. And everyone for sharing and caring so much.
x
I saw ads on the net for his seminars...$365 a person.
Sorry but even if I was dying, I would rather spend that well earnt $365 on something more concrete and productive than this so -called quacks ideas...and thats all they are. IDEAS.
Up until now I have seen nothing concrete to prove that a gluten free diet gets rid of ANY antibody.
Any person can post a testimonial.....my son in law lives in Queensland (Australia) and managed a Health Store giving people discounts if they posted a Testimonal on their website. So what does that tell you?
And my son-in-law did 6 years at Uni on nutrition and dietry health....only to work in a Health Food Store (known worldwide) to then walk away from it due to pressure of 'pushing' their products.
I believe that Dr. K is lining his own pockets at the benefit of others....which is sad as many who have thyroid issues are desperate and will try anything for a 'cure' when there is no cure for Autoimmune Diseases.
Management..yes, Cure ,,,NO.
I was also one of those desperate people when first diagnosed with Graves. If someone had said to me..."Here, take this and you will be cured"....I wouldve taken it but not now...I am a lot wiser to it all now.
Dr. K is also a Chiropractor and like many "get rich quick" Doctors has found himself on the Holistic trail as it really is a money maker.
As I have said in other postings....I dont "buy" this Doctor.
Sorry but even if I was dying, I would rather spend that well earnt $365 on something more concrete and productive than this so -called quacks ideas...and thats all they are. IDEAS.
Up until now I have seen nothing concrete to prove that a gluten free diet gets rid of ANY antibody.
Any person can post a testimonial.....my son in law lives in Queensland (Australia) and managed a Health Store giving people discounts if they posted a Testimonal on their website. So what does that tell you?
And my son-in-law did 6 years at Uni on nutrition and dietry health....only to work in a Health Food Store (known worldwide) to then walk away from it due to pressure of 'pushing' their products.
I believe that Dr. K is lining his own pockets at the benefit of others....which is sad as many who have thyroid issues are desperate and will try anything for a 'cure' when there is no cure for Autoimmune Diseases.
Management..yes, Cure ,,,NO.
I was also one of those desperate people when first diagnosed with Graves. If someone had said to me..."Here, take this and you will be cured"....I wouldve taken it but not now...I am a lot wiser to it all now.
Dr. K is also a Chiropractor and like many "get rich quick" Doctors has found himself on the Holistic trail as it really is a money maker.
As I have said in other postings....I dont "buy" this Doctor.
No, as far as I know, the Digestive Diseases and Sciences article is not from K's bibliography. Here's the link to what you can see for free:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/xv2h3k42n19gu6g5/?p=b084e6851f4b4a5e9f1f04b5f0bda6ac&pi=31
$47 is a bit dear for a ten-year-old study.
If you have questions, throw them out there! Many of us who have been around for a while have questions about the book. I think it's really interesting to see what people with not quite so much experience are concerned about, and what questions they have. I'm hoping this thread will become one that we can reference to people considering and/or reading the book. The more questions we put out there...the more critically they are apt to read it. Include page numbers if you can.
I have not explored the references...there are too many of them, and I've already put way too much time into a book I have little respect for.. My feeling is that the person(s) recommending this book and its protocol should be able to provide the references to the studies. If they did their due diligence, the references ought to be at their fingertips. Perhaps one of them will post on this thread eventually, although repeated requests on other threads have as yet elicited no answers.
It's hard to recommend an overview book. I've learned most of what I know from the forum and from net research. It's so important to read both sides of every issue. A whole book of one person's perspective can become tedious. I hope someone else can recommend something to you.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/xv2h3k42n19gu6g5/?p=b084e6851f4b4a5e9f1f04b5f0bda6ac&pi=31
$47 is a bit dear for a ten-year-old study.
If you have questions, throw them out there! Many of us who have been around for a while have questions about the book. I think it's really interesting to see what people with not quite so much experience are concerned about, and what questions they have. I'm hoping this thread will become one that we can reference to people considering and/or reading the book. The more questions we put out there...the more critically they are apt to read it. Include page numbers if you can.
I have not explored the references...there are too many of them, and I've already put way too much time into a book I have little respect for.. My feeling is that the person(s) recommending this book and its protocol should be able to provide the references to the studies. If they did their due diligence, the references ought to be at their fingertips. Perhaps one of them will post on this thread eventually, although repeated requests on other threads have as yet elicited no answers.
It's hard to recommend an overview book. I've learned most of what I know from the forum and from net research. It's so important to read both sides of every issue. A whole book of one person's perspective can become tedious. I hope someone else can recommend something to you.
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