average dose of armour when have no thyroid

[Emmy4337]

What is an average dose of Armour or Nature-Throid if a person doesn't have a thyroid (or has only 1/3 and it is atrophied)?

[gimel]

We haven't heard from magpieannie for a while.  If you will tell us about any symptoms your husband has, and post his latest thyroid related test results, along with reference ranges, perhaps other members can help.

Do I understand correctly that he started on Armour at beginning of Feb and is now taking 3 grains?  Has je been tested for Vitamin D, B12 and ferritin?

[chickenSue]

Hello, you seem most knowledgeable & my husband has no thyroid, is working up to the proper dose on Armour (we started this process at the beginning of February.  He is up to 3 grains of Armour and has to be at this level for 4-6 weeks.  Still experiencing hypo symptoms; wondering at times if he will ever feel normal again.  We have a doctor that is working with us on raising the NDT grains slowly & with labs - but at times I feel like I am driving the train, and just trying to find as much info as I can online.  I do feel overwhelmed at times.  Is the shaky hands / muscles part of this?  I believe another post you mentioned this was a cellular level and I do believe this.  It is a long haul and we get discouraged at times.  Hope your daughter is doing well and we are thankful for this group.

[gimel]

Taking into account the actual amount of T3 and T4 in NatureThroid, the correct conversion would be closer to 3 grains.  Based on your Endo's proposed 1.25 grains, and his saying 2 grains would be toxic, I don't have much respect for his knowledge of thyroid issues.  

Why do you want to change, anyway?  If you are feeling well, why risk making a change?  What do you think is the potential benefit?  What are your Free T3 and Free T4 levels, and their reference ranges shown on the lab report?  

[lassdancer]

I am 61 daignosed with Hashimotos at age 41. I'm currently taking 112mg Synthroid and 25mg Cytomel. I want to convert to Naturethroid. My endocrinologist suggested the correct dose of Naturethroid is 1.25 grains because I am on 112mcg of Synthroid. He somehow discounts my T3 altogether!
I think this is way too low and wanted 2 grains. He says it would be toxic. I saw a conversion chart on the web. It said each grain of Naturethroid contains 38 mcg of synthroid and 9 mcg of T3. What do you think?
lassdancer

[magpieannie]

That's great news! My daughter is now completly switched over to Erfa from the original Nature-Throid as of 8/3 (I switched her over gradually over the course of 3 weeks). She is doing great so far. She is taking 2 1/2 grains as this is what dosage she was on since the spring on Natuture-Throid. I'm thinking she may possibly need a decrease to 2 grains, however labs will tell me more as they will be done on 8/13. It is either normal adjusting or she is on slightly too much. She is sleeping through the night but is getting up earlier in the morning and a little louder and more moody during the late afternoon and evenings after her last dose (1/2 grain) later in the day. When she was up to 2 grains of Erfa and 1/2 grain of N.T. for a while she seemed to act more like herself. Other then this,no other hypo. issues and no complaints. Energy is good, no joint or muscle pain etc. Please stay in touch with how you are doing and I'll do the same.

[Emmy4337]

I've restarted reformulated armour 7-20 at 4 grains (couldn't stand the reformulated Nature Throid) and started feeling a little better.  Started ERFA 7-28 at 4 grains and moved down to 3.5 grains yesterday (too hyped up to sleep at night).  Cycle started the 3rd after stopping while on New NT (no not pregnant I checked). Joint pain is gone, sleeping through the night again, not freezing, more energy, mood better.  I think I am on the right path!  I have enough for 11 months so I am a happy camper right now.

[Emmy4337]

Thanks for the info.  I'm on my own basically, the doctor's PA said I am past what he can do and had I thought about a referral to an endo.  Of course every endo I've seen (2) and talked to (4) will not do dessicated.  The PA has agreed to send a script so I can order ERFA thyroid which should be here in a week.  He said today when I saw him that he had a lady not doing well on synthroid so he switched her to Armour!  Yeah!  Her T3 was up and she felt better but her T4 was now down so he would probably add some synthroid back in.  Now that is a dr. I can live with!!!  I read an article in Health Magazine last week that said some people done fine on T4 only and others need T4/T3. It also said to have the TSH, FT4 & FT3 checked. Maybe the word if finally getting out.

[paula240]

I take 8 grains of thyriod -s. I was taking 8 grains armour and went down hill when they changed the fornula. I have tryed to reduced my amount from 8 grains to 7 and my symtoms came back. I am working back up to eight which seems perfect for me. So dont let it put you off if u need to go higher. We are all different.

[stella5349]

just take it easy... fixing this sometimes ( most times) is slow and rushing will sometimes put you right back to square one.

[Emmy4337]

Ok, I'll stay at 130 for a while and let everything catch up with me.  I'm feeling much better than when on Syn + Cyntomel.  I'm going to to have my vitamin B level checked when I go in later this month.  I've been watching the Vitamin D level and have seen in increase since October w/ supplements. I'm about to start selenium, Krill Oil (omega 3) and a good mulit vitamin this week.  Right now I only take SAM-e, vit D and cinnamon.  

[stella5349]

no that's too much - work with the medication - don't over indulge... You need to follow the guidelines of NT and you - with your doctor need to raise slow 1/4 grain - then a week or two increase... test and see where to go from there w/ labs and symptoms..

That is WAY too high to increase.... Have you been using selenium as a supplement w/ the NT? - that and your B vit is important too.

No - you may find at the beginning of treatment you will have frequent increases. Eventually your body adjusts and you can find after things start to even out - you will decrease too.

That was me.. I was on near 8 grains for a while - but then I started to need less and now I am stablized on about 4 grains.... Keep in mind - we are all different though... and I have no thyroid left either to function on its own

[Emmy4337]

I've been back on Nature Throid since 2/13 since the cytomel wasn't helping very much.  Joint pain is gone until very late in the day.  I'm taking 130 mcg at 6:30am and 60 at 1pm.  I'm about to up the 2nd dose to 130 also.  I know 3 grains is alot but I'm not having any hyper symptoms & I want the last of the hypo symptom to go away.  I still have some T4 in my system as it has only been 2 weeks since I stopped the synthroid.  Could I have an absorbtion issue and that is why it is taking so much medicine to make me feel better?  Everyone talks about upping meds by a 1/4 grain at a time.

[Emmy4337]

Would the following chart be accurate?  I am trying to see how much T4 & T3 I am taking.  I have not taken any more Synthroid, it is just what is left as it decreases by half each week.
The first column is the leftover Syn.  the next 2 columns are the Nature Throid and the final 2 columns are the total I should have in my system.  Can I add the 2 different types of T4 together or do they act differently? I was reading that only 40-60% of T4 is actually converted.
65mg pill
38mcg T4 9mcg T3
Syn T4 T4 T3 TOTAL T4 TOTAL T3
137 76 18 213 18
137 76 18 213 18
137 95 22.5 232 22.5
137 95 22.5 232 22.5
137 114 27 251 27
137 114 27 251 27

[stella5349]

no - no - no... NT is MUCH different than T4 Synthroid. NT has direct natural T3 and that is more powerful than just the straight T4.

T4 meds may not convert enough as you are describing with your 137mcgs you were on.. The 130mgs NT is much different and should be plenty to start if that's what you did.

Most find that the first couple of weeks with T4 meds is like a surge of hormone getting in... like a push.... but if - as many can find - the T4 may stop converting or store - or not release and then you start to slip again... Testing ussually happens and in many cases the T4 is raised - due to labs or sometimes symptoms - as fatigue would be and then that process of surge and crash happens again.

[Emmy4337]

Have been on NT now 4 days at 130mg split doses and most of joint pain is gone until very late in the evening.  Is the T4 in NT difference from Synthroid?  The 137 mcg wasn't enough and if I stop it shouldn't I add enough of NT to equal plus the added T3 to keep the levels even and then start adding more NT? This is confusing!  Another question I have is why did I feel fabulous on weeks 3 & 4 on Synthroid. Better than I ever felt on Armour or NT.  I then went downhill and felt WORSE than I ever felt on either.

[magpieannie]

Good Luck!!!!

[Emmy4337]

Thanks so much for your help and advice.  I am starting NT Sat. am.  Wish me luck!  I'll touch base as I add more.

[magpieannie]

It was probably the reformulation in the Armour that was giving you issues. It did the same for my daughter and it also failed Stella. Stella's plan is good for switching back over. Just go slow, and check labs when you think you are there symptomatically (or before if needed) As the Synthroid is slowly eliminated, you will want to slowly add back in the Naturethroid. So starting with a  1 & 1/2 grains. and adding in another 1/4 or 1/2 every 10 days to 2 weeks as you need it based on symptoms, and then check blood to see if you are there at say around 6 weeks and 3 grains. Go slow and shoot for the lab ranges Stella and I suggested, and I bet you'll feel better in a few months as my thyroidless daughter did! Keep your doctor in the loop with this and keep us posted on how it is going.

[stella5349]

If you doctor is OK with it - start at a lower 90mg - then follow the norm... 2 weeks increase to 15 then 2 weeks another - then test... Follow the Free labs and see where you are at - then additional increases.

You want to average your Free T3 in the higher ranges - and Free T4 mid - maybe a tad higher - then when you achieve that - stay on that dosage and recheck again in 3 months...

Its a process - but you can find your level you feel best at and be able to monitor it in time.

[Emmy4337]

The problem I was having was that I wasn't feeling great on Armour.  Maybe not taking enough or due to the re-formulation.  My cholesterol and suger aren't great and watching my father slowly die from diabetes and heart failure is spurring me to make great effort to get this straightened out.  I've probably had problems for 10 year and certainly for 6 even though I was only diagnosed 4 yrs ago.  What should I start at as I add it back in and how much should I increase each time?

[magpieannie]

You wouldn't think that it would take 190 mg of Nature-Throid to get the same effect as 120mg of Armour, however that is the exact case here! I know other people who have experienced this as well with Nature-Throid. Just pay close attention to symptoms when you are switching back and remember to add it back in slowly, increasing every 10 days or so, as the Synthroid will stay in your system for 4 to 6 weeks. It has a long 1/2 life  (reduces by 1/2 in your body each week). So if you add all three grains at once, you won't feel well. It really takes time when we make these medication changes. It took us several months to get it right and feel good again. Best of luck to you!

[Emmy4337]

Thanks.  I went straight from 120 Armour to 135 Nature Throid.  I'm thinking now I shouldhave tried adjusting up more after switching.  I didn't know (& my old dr. hasn't a clue about dessicated) about having to add that much.  I've agreed to try synthroid and my new dr. just added cytomel after I begged and begged. I think I will have to give it another couple of weeks before switching back.  I hated syn. alone and adding T3 hasn't helped as much I had hoped it would.  Since the T3 is so short lived I see no point in trying it for too long since it doesn't have to build up in the blood to get the effect.  I'll try 3 grains when I go back and split if like your daughter.

[magpieannie]

My daughter is 9 and born without a thyroid gland. She weighs 120 lbs. She is on 3 grains of Nature-Throid split into 3 doses per day at 4 hour intervals. (1 grain at 7:00 am- 1 grain at 11:00 am- and 1 grain at 3:00pm.) She is feeling great- no hypo or hyper health issues  of any kind and blood levels are at her optimal "normal" range for her to be symptom free. ( TSH well under 1/ Freet3- high normal /freet4- a little above mid range- slightly under freet3 level ) She has been on Nature-Throid for 6 months now. It has taken  1 grain more of it to get the same results (symptom and blood wise) as she had on the old "good" Armour (before reformulation).

[Emmy4337]

Thanks!  My old and new dr. are not familiar w/ dessicated thryoid medicine and since I wasn't feeling any better on it I decided to try the synthetic.  It isn't working so far though.  I'll probably go back to Nature Throid at the end of the month.  I was on 130 NT but it was all in the morning.  I'll try splitting it and work up to adding more if needed.  My old dr. was fine w/ letting me self regulate, not sure how the new one will be.  I'm trying to learn as much as I can about this - hypo due to Hashimoto and basically no thyroid - so I can feel better and not have the high cholesterol and pre-diabetes that I am dealing with right now.  Any suggestiongs?