Aa
Maybe controversial, but needs perspective
Ok this is one of many suboxone related threads you will see on this site. I have a personal opinion on suboxone and methadone (maintence meds) due to my years on and off them between aactive runs of heroin. Whether or not they work is up for debate and really based off individual experience, BUT.. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the notion that it's considered being "clean". I never considered myself clean while on suboxone or methadone becuase once 12-24 hours went by I would be sick and NEED more even if I had to rob, hurt somebody or shoot dope again. I would see some people on this site say "It's great to be clean and on suboxone now" (paraphrasing of course) and in actuality, it's awesome if it's helping you restore some order in your life, it didn't for me but I know many people who it did help and some of them managed to come off from there and have substantial clean/sober time now. I bring this all up because I had an experience lately that I needed to pray and meditate on. I have gone through my steps and began sponsoring other people. I took in a sponsee last week and gave him an assignment to read and prepare for step 1. When he came in we discussed his back story and he told me he had 3 months... thanks to suboxone. I felt bad but I couldn't ethically keep him as a sponsee. I got support from %99 of people I know in recovery but have received some criticism as well. I guess the reason I get so jaded about it is because I did the suboxone route, and it held me over for a while, but the REAL work began when I had to stop EVERYTHING and make the honest effort to get my life back and be truly sober. I don't want to come off as cynical and don't intend to undermine anybodys success so far with those meds, I'm just trying to make sense out of where people are coming from sometimes and didn't know if anyone here with long term recovery and involvement with the fellowship has dealt with anything similar in sponsor/sponsee relationships.
Yes I agree with you all above. I was sooo mad and confused I was just going to go to aa.They said anyone is welcomed....THEN WHY are we opening another one. If its all about giving it to your higher power then why should a meeting like that be opened and call it something different. It confused the h----- out of me....
vvic
vvic
We opened some special NA meetings for the people who are using but have all intends to come clean......so whatever works for who is working it.....
That's great!
I think I would just tell folks to remain open minded...I think if they went IN to a meeting with the understanding that the fundamental principles dictate a slightly different course in the program, it would probably be much less offensive. That's what I was saying a bunch of posts ago..I don't think there's enough awareness. I think that sub and meth clinics bear some responsibility in that as well. I would bet my life that those pts are referred to those groups all the time, with NO discussion whatsoever of what to expect. If the pts were educated and KNEW about the fact that there's a conflict of interest there...I think it would be much better received.
I would also love to hear more tales like the one wic shared....how there were some seperate meetings set up, more geared toward the addict who chose to go that route.
That's great!
I think I would just tell folks to remain open minded...I think if they went IN to a meeting with the understanding that the fundamental principles dictate a slightly different course in the program, it would probably be much less offensive. That's what I was saying a bunch of posts ago..I don't think there's enough awareness. I think that sub and meth clinics bear some responsibility in that as well. I would bet my life that those pts are referred to those groups all the time, with NO discussion whatsoever of what to expect. If the pts were educated and KNEW about the fact that there's a conflict of interest there...I think it would be much better received.
I would also love to hear more tales like the one wic shared....how there were some seperate meetings set up, more geared toward the addict who chose to go that route.
Not all programs are national/international. I would tell folks to check in their local area/community. Look in the yellow pages, search on the computer, ask a physician for a referral, look in the local newspaper.
Each state offers some kind of program, they all differ. In my state there are many programs both free and low income, along with state sponsored programs which work in conjunction with the methadone clinics here and Suboxone treatment. In other words, if the state is paying, attending an outpatient program is mandatory and the state offers such programs at no cost.
Colleges and universities are a great resource, as well as university hospitals.
Each state offers some kind of program, they all differ. In my state there are many programs both free and low income, along with state sponsored programs which work in conjunction with the methadone clinics here and Suboxone treatment. In other words, if the state is paying, attending an outpatient program is mandatory and the state offers such programs at no cost.
Colleges and universities are a great resource, as well as university hospitals.
If you're on Sub, prescribed by a doctor, not abusing, and are honest about it; anybody can go to NA and get support here in Detroit. That's a fact.
Good one barb.You should start a separate post about this exact issue that you pointed out.I have to say that in my medium sized town that I am closest too that there is not alot besides aa/na. That is the only program that the two treatment centers have and the only thing that the court really uses because it is free.In large cities I know there are way more options for addicts and alcoholics to learn recovery skills and get support
I think some advise as to other recovery options would be very helpful here in this thread.
I'm seven weeks, and only know of AA, NA, or paying money for group or individual counseling.
I didn't use subs, but am highly concerned about the many lurkers that may be reading this post, yet to join the forum, have taken the first step toward sobriety, and have admitted their addiction. Maybe after many failures, they are using subs. Perhaps they are just starting. We never know just how many are reading.. This post could affects hundreds.
There could be a person who just started their sub treatment, committed to sobriety, who may have been heading out the door to their first meeting, read this thread, and changed their mind, because they know now, they probably won't be welcome by everyone. Even as NG says, possibly shamed or turned away.
So, as was posted that their were other recovery options, please share. Besides paying for therapy, which may not be an option for many.
Church, things like that, can be a huge part of recovery, but church is church. It's not going to teach you how to put your disease in remission.
So, where can these poor addicts so desperately trying to get clean, but must, for whatever reason, use subs, go?
Please somebody, offer them hope. Because reading this thread, knowing you aren't truly being accepted, ( yes, you can come but not begin recovery steps) is heartbreaking.
I am talking about the ones fully commited, just the way those of us that quit our doc by ct or tapering are. And those who have never used subs, but relapsed, and got right back up fighting.
Thank you... A long post just to ask about other recovery options for sub users, but if this post made me feel this bad, and I didn't even choose the sub route, I can't begin to imagine how it is making the one's that are just starting their fight, but choose the sub route ( for many this may be their LAST fight) feel.
I'm seven weeks, and only know of AA, NA, or paying money for group or individual counseling.
I didn't use subs, but am highly concerned about the many lurkers that may be reading this post, yet to join the forum, have taken the first step toward sobriety, and have admitted their addiction. Maybe after many failures, they are using subs. Perhaps they are just starting. We never know just how many are reading.. This post could affects hundreds.
There could be a person who just started their sub treatment, committed to sobriety, who may have been heading out the door to their first meeting, read this thread, and changed their mind, because they know now, they probably won't be welcome by everyone. Even as NG says, possibly shamed or turned away.
So, as was posted that their were other recovery options, please share. Besides paying for therapy, which may not be an option for many.
Church, things like that, can be a huge part of recovery, but church is church. It's not going to teach you how to put your disease in remission.
So, where can these poor addicts so desperately trying to get clean, but must, for whatever reason, use subs, go?
Please somebody, offer them hope. Because reading this thread, knowing you aren't truly being accepted, ( yes, you can come but not begin recovery steps) is heartbreaking.
I am talking about the ones fully commited, just the way those of us that quit our doc by ct or tapering are. And those who have never used subs, but relapsed, and got right back up fighting.
Thank you... A long post just to ask about other recovery options for sub users, but if this post made me feel this bad, and I didn't even choose the sub route, I can't begin to imagine how it is making the one's that are just starting their fight, but choose the sub route ( for many this may be their LAST fight) feel.
I believe na has a little more tolerance and flexibility when it comes to these issues.I think it is always good to be more inclusive especially since the success rates can't really get much lower anyway.It all really comes down to helping more people to get and stay clean or preserving an organization imo
This is a good one I just posted about how important aftercare is for me in MY recovery.before I seen this one!!!!! We had a sub/methedone/opiate Dr attend one of our meetings because he wanted to know if they could come to NA while using. We are not to judge or refuse anyone because of the grace of god they will come clean. They are trying in their own way. WHAT EVER WORKS TO GET CLEAN...Anyway alot of people who are taking this route feel they get looked at or whatever. We opened some special NA meetings for the people who are useing but have all intends to come clean......so whatever works for who is working it.....
God Bless us All
vvic
God Bless us All
vvic
Thank you both. I love these discussions also, especially this one. I indeed sensed my B-I-L had much more energy sometimes. I agree, you're absolutely not void of narcotics when on sub. I thank God I didn't go that far. But it's a yet, out there lurking.
As long as the person in recovery is honest about it at the meetings, in most places they will be accepted, but still judged by some. Human nature. Some would rather look at everyone else instead of at themselves. Kathy, one of my favorite persons in the world, comes down to our Friday night NA meeting, at a big old church on the SW side, on the elevator. She's on a walker, and also on Norco. She has 33 years clean. When it's her turn to speak, we hang on her every word. She has a wonderful program of recovery going. She's a blessed person, but in bad phy shape.
Could you imagine if the NA basic text or AA Big Book had a disclaimer, "program subject to change without notice". Or, sorry folks, new tradition: Your as sober as your health allows you. If you get old, or injured, you're on your own if you use drugs for the pain, or anxiety, or depression. As far as I know, and I think you'll agree, "abuse" is the key word here. 71 year old Kathy doesn't abuse the stuff. At my NA home group we make the announcement "If you've used today please just listen. But also be sure to get with someone and talk to them after the meeting". After being out using, I held off going to my 1st meeting in 21 months for a week while I detoxed. I had a lot to get off my chest and needed to talk.
And I can't begin to tell you how this discussion has also helped me with an issue I obviously have. 4 years ago When I first tried Vicodin, and it did nothing for my pain, I was honest about it by stupidly telling my AA table the next day. I got judged. Not by everyone, but a few key ppl I greatly respected and learned from. I have the personality type where I dwell on the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff sometimes, even with the 27 1/2 years of pure clean-time I had until then. King Robert with his 27 years time got his pride smashed. Eventually I fell apart and I went out. Being an addict, all my drugs marched back into my life, like I never stopped in the first place. My doctor gave me the script, but "I" made that choice and filled it to see if it would help my pain; and it didn't. The 2nd bad choice was to save the remaining 89 hits for a rainy day. And the judging and gossip brought on the rain storm because I dwell on the bad stuff. Judging and gossip is human nature, to be expected anywhere humans are. So, this time around I'm working on CHANGE. I can't change human nature, so If I don't change myself, nothing changes.
As long as the person in recovery is honest about it at the meetings, in most places they will be accepted, but still judged by some. Human nature. Some would rather look at everyone else instead of at themselves. Kathy, one of my favorite persons in the world, comes down to our Friday night NA meeting, at a big old church on the SW side, on the elevator. She's on a walker, and also on Norco. She has 33 years clean. When it's her turn to speak, we hang on her every word. She has a wonderful program of recovery going. She's a blessed person, but in bad phy shape.
Could you imagine if the NA basic text or AA Big Book had a disclaimer, "program subject to change without notice". Or, sorry folks, new tradition: Your as sober as your health allows you. If you get old, or injured, you're on your own if you use drugs for the pain, or anxiety, or depression. As far as I know, and I think you'll agree, "abuse" is the key word here. 71 year old Kathy doesn't abuse the stuff. At my NA home group we make the announcement "If you've used today please just listen. But also be sure to get with someone and talk to them after the meeting". After being out using, I held off going to my 1st meeting in 21 months for a week while I detoxed. I had a lot to get off my chest and needed to talk.
And I can't begin to tell you how this discussion has also helped me with an issue I obviously have. 4 years ago When I first tried Vicodin, and it did nothing for my pain, I was honest about it by stupidly telling my AA table the next day. I got judged. Not by everyone, but a few key ppl I greatly respected and learned from. I have the personality type where I dwell on the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff sometimes, even with the 27 1/2 years of pure clean-time I had until then. King Robert with his 27 years time got his pride smashed. Eventually I fell apart and I went out. Being an addict, all my drugs marched back into my life, like I never stopped in the first place. My doctor gave me the script, but "I" made that choice and filled it to see if it would help my pain; and it didn't. The 2nd bad choice was to save the remaining 89 hits for a rainy day. And the judging and gossip brought on the rain storm because I dwell on the bad stuff. Judging and gossip is human nature, to be expected anywhere humans are. So, this time around I'm working on CHANGE. I can't change human nature, so If I don't change myself, nothing changes.
This is why I like these kinds of discussions, it's very educational, and the diifferent points made are important to consider. Like myself, I often have that mindset that the COMPLIANT Sub user isn't "high" per se, but your point about the varying defining qualities is really a good one. I'm sure for the recovery groups, that's where the hang up is...and it's really a legit conflict.
That's a very fair statement. I think most people assume "high" means visibly intoxicated, or altered. You're absolutely right that while a person on sub may not to "high" in that respect, iot certainly elevates the mood, gives energy, etc. Sub has a lot of great anti-depressant qualities, which of course isn't so great when a person tapers off. Many struggle with the emotional stuff significantly.
Very good post!
Very good post!
A person that is on subs is still on an opiate.The bupenorphine is an opiate with a ceiling effect which means there is a limit to how much it affects you.Their frame of mind is not the same as someone who is not on an opiate or especially someone who was addicted and are no longer using any substance to alter their mind.If I took a suboxone right now I am dead sure positive that I would experience a great shift in my mood and perception of my feelings and my life.I really think when you are talking about opiates the word high has a broad and ambiguous meaning when it comes to trying to define it from one person to another.Also it is quite relative to where a person is at in there addiction as far as tolerance,potency,dose,etc. After all it is more or less a folk term.
Sadly, sub is definitely not abuse-proof. For most people, a high doesn't come super easily with sub, but like anything else, anything is possible. While the blocker (naloxone) offers a small aspect of an opiate blocker in suboxone...the MAIN reason most people cannot get high on other opiates while on subs is because of how the buprenorphine fills the opiate receptors. Basically, in simple terms, there isn't room for anything else. Bupe fills the receptors up to about 95%, even a bit more. So, you can see that there isn't room for much more. The opiate blocker is more of a mental deterrant than anything.
Vicki is probably right that the fellowship most likely won't change it's guidelines, and in fairness, they have been around for a long time...I can respect that.
Suboxone is definitely abused, like anything else, you'll find people who really WANT to get clean and who are using it responsibly and as directed, then you have the people who are either abusing it, or just using it to stave off w/d until they get access to their DOC again. I guess in theory, it would be kind of hard to weed out who's who.
There are other sober programs available which Sub and methadone users should be involved in to begin with... .
See, I respectfully disagree. I don't think there is ENOUGH resources, especially considering that in some circumstances, some of the local AA/NA meetings may not allow a person to fully benefit from the program, and some who ask those using sub/meth to return only when they had completed their programs (not a judgement there, just stating the facts).
The GOOD sub programs have their own therapy but, once the program is complete, they're done. I know the clinic I worked for made biweekly therapy (group and private) a requirement for the program, but as far as the aftercare plans, people were encouraged to start attending AA/NA meetings....which is when some of the people ran into some problems. I guess the best way to approach that would be for the clinics to just recommend them starting the meetings after they were done. The downfall there is, sometimes people are on sub or methadone for a significant amount of time...and those people absolutely could benefit from those types of meetings along the way...especially if they're struggling. I think the additional meetings would be so helpful to those people.
Again, maybe it's just more of a consistency issue...or a matter of these organizations finding a way to incorporate those kinds of addicts into the programs, without alienating them, or making them feel judged or unworthy. Because clearly, the variation from meeting to meeting to ME seems to be an issue. Those who are familiar with these groups here have said those people are absolutely welcomed and encouraged to be there, where others are turning them away. And there's no way around hurting a person's feelings in the event someone has to tell them they can't fully participate in every aspect of the program. There just has to be a way to adapt to include those people, without sacrificing those important fundamental beliefs.
I think the idea of starting a new organization, similar in theory to a 12-step program, where med replacement treatments could be incorporated into the fundamental process, is a great idea. The people could learn similar steps to recvoery, while they would be encouraged to taper off the sub/methadone, or in the instances where a person chooses long-term sub/meth, there wouldn't be that conflict that exists with the current programs, whose fundamental principles are built around what it means to be clean...because most certainly, sub and methadone blurs those issues.
I think it would be possible to adapt those groups, to basically include two types of meetings, two types of sponsorship, and two kinds of principles. I would love to hear what you guys think about that...those of you who have experience in these groups. Would you think something like that would be possible? Is it more of an issue where you feel the sub/meth user is not on the same level as you in their recovery? I could see that that would be a conflict. Do you think anyone with any length of time in these groups would even CONSIDER even a discussion about that?
Suboxone is definitely abused, like anything else, you'll find people who really WANT to get clean and who are using it responsibly and as directed, then you have the people who are either abusing it, or just using it to stave off w/d until they get access to their DOC again. I guess in theory, it would be kind of hard to weed out who's who.
There are other sober programs available which Sub and methadone users should be involved in to begin with... .
See, I respectfully disagree. I don't think there is ENOUGH resources, especially considering that in some circumstances, some of the local AA/NA meetings may not allow a person to fully benefit from the program, and some who ask those using sub/meth to return only when they had completed their programs (not a judgement there, just stating the facts).
The GOOD sub programs have their own therapy but, once the program is complete, they're done. I know the clinic I worked for made biweekly therapy (group and private) a requirement for the program, but as far as the aftercare plans, people were encouraged to start attending AA/NA meetings....which is when some of the people ran into some problems. I guess the best way to approach that would be for the clinics to just recommend them starting the meetings after they were done. The downfall there is, sometimes people are on sub or methadone for a significant amount of time...and those people absolutely could benefit from those types of meetings along the way...especially if they're struggling. I think the additional meetings would be so helpful to those people.
Again, maybe it's just more of a consistency issue...or a matter of these organizations finding a way to incorporate those kinds of addicts into the programs, without alienating them, or making them feel judged or unworthy. Because clearly, the variation from meeting to meeting to ME seems to be an issue. Those who are familiar with these groups here have said those people are absolutely welcomed and encouraged to be there, where others are turning them away. And there's no way around hurting a person's feelings in the event someone has to tell them they can't fully participate in every aspect of the program. There just has to be a way to adapt to include those people, without sacrificing those important fundamental beliefs.
I think the idea of starting a new organization, similar in theory to a 12-step program, where med replacement treatments could be incorporated into the fundamental process, is a great idea. The people could learn similar steps to recvoery, while they would be encouraged to taper off the sub/methadone, or in the instances where a person chooses long-term sub/meth, there wouldn't be that conflict that exists with the current programs, whose fundamental principles are built around what it means to be clean...because most certainly, sub and methadone blurs those issues.
I think it would be possible to adapt those groups, to basically include two types of meetings, two types of sponsorship, and two kinds of principles. I would love to hear what you guys think about that...those of you who have experience in these groups. Would you think something like that would be possible? Is it more of an issue where you feel the sub/meth user is not on the same level as you in their recovery? I could see that that would be a conflict. Do you think anyone with any length of time in these groups would even CONSIDER even a discussion about that?
Thanks for the info.
When my brother-in-law went on it a few years ago I looked it up. It's info-sheet description that is included with the script is what made me think it was abuse-proof: Suboxone is used to treat narcotic (opioid) dependence/addiction. It contains 2 medicines: buprenorphine and naloxone. Buprenorphine helps prevent withdrawal symptoms caused by stopping other opiate-type narcotics. Naloxone is a narcotic antagonist that blocks the effect of narcotics and can cause severe narcotic withdrawal when injected. Withdrawal is less likely when naloxone is taken by mouth or dissolved under the tongue. It is combined with buprenorphine to prevent abuse and misuse (injection) of this medication. This combination medication is used as part of a complete treatment program for drug abuse (such as compliance monitoring, counseling, behavioral contract, lifestyle changes).
After reading that description I knew my B-I-L wouldn't abuse it. He was desperate to get clean from pain pills. He's pretty much done getting high and happy to be alive, now enjoying his grandchildren, just like myself.
It seems a drug that blocks the effect of narcotics, used to treat narcotic dependence/addiction is a step in the right direction in getting clean for the patient using it. It's for very low bottom cases who didn't have much of a chance before it came on the market. You'd think today's 12-step group members would give ppl who don't abuse it, and have the desire to get clean, some credit. These ppl need all the 12th step help us in recovery can muster because they WANT to finally get clean. That's the ticket. And this was the spirit of Bill Wilson and doctor Bob when they went to a hospital in 1936 to try and help alcoholic number 3. Those two took part in a true miracle that saved, and is still saving, millions of addicts and alcoholics from certain death.
When my brother-in-law went on it a few years ago I looked it up. It's info-sheet description that is included with the script is what made me think it was abuse-proof: Suboxone is used to treat narcotic (opioid) dependence/addiction. It contains 2 medicines: buprenorphine and naloxone. Buprenorphine helps prevent withdrawal symptoms caused by stopping other opiate-type narcotics. Naloxone is a narcotic antagonist that blocks the effect of narcotics and can cause severe narcotic withdrawal when injected. Withdrawal is less likely when naloxone is taken by mouth or dissolved under the tongue. It is combined with buprenorphine to prevent abuse and misuse (injection) of this medication. This combination medication is used as part of a complete treatment program for drug abuse (such as compliance monitoring, counseling, behavioral contract, lifestyle changes).
After reading that description I knew my B-I-L wouldn't abuse it. He was desperate to get clean from pain pills. He's pretty much done getting high and happy to be alive, now enjoying his grandchildren, just like myself.
It seems a drug that blocks the effect of narcotics, used to treat narcotic dependence/addiction is a step in the right direction in getting clean for the patient using it. It's for very low bottom cases who didn't have much of a chance before it came on the market. You'd think today's 12-step group members would give ppl who don't abuse it, and have the desire to get clean, some credit. These ppl need all the 12th step help us in recovery can muster because they WANT to finally get clean. That's the ticket. And this was the spirit of Bill Wilson and doctor Bob when they went to a hospital in 1936 to try and help alcoholic number 3. Those two took part in a true miracle that saved, and is still saving, millions of addicts and alcoholics from certain death.
no subs are easily abused and are sold commonly at street level.
I don't know many addicts(myself included) that will buy something in an attempt to not get high.
I don't know many addicts(myself included) that will buy something in an attempt to not get high.
Question: Are subs mind altering? Does the user still feel high? I was under the impression that my brother in law felt normal, the subs just keep WDs at bay.
I doubt the fellowship is going to change its mind about the use of opiates. The whole premise is abstinence for members. That's the way it is and the way they roll. There are other sober programs available which Sub and methadone users should be involved in to begin with...
I agree with your post and understand your point.
I just think there are far too many people who wouldn't be as open minded as you if they came accross a scenario where they were turned away from a portion of a program because of their choice to use subs or methadone.
I do agree that for one, a sponsor has to do what he/she is comfortable with for sure...as well as follow the guidelines that were set up. Obviously, that's a conflict of interest and not an easy situation.
My biggest point was, I don't think it would hurt to take a closer look at those fundamental guidelines...and see if there isn't a way to meet in the middle a bit, so that no one ever feels they cannot benefit from the whole program like someone who wasn't on subs...while people already invested into the organizations could hang onto their principles as they know and trust them.
I just think there are far too many people who wouldn't be as open minded as you if they came accross a scenario where they were turned away from a portion of a program because of their choice to use subs or methadone.
I do agree that for one, a sponsor has to do what he/she is comfortable with for sure...as well as follow the guidelines that were set up. Obviously, that's a conflict of interest and not an easy situation.
My biggest point was, I don't think it would hurt to take a closer look at those fundamental guidelines...and see if there isn't a way to meet in the middle a bit, so that no one ever feels they cannot benefit from the whole program like someone who wasn't on subs...while people already invested into the organizations could hang onto their principles as they know and trust them.
Interesting post. Would I consider myself clean if I was taking subs or meth? NO.
Would I expect to be supported by NA or AA if I was? YES
We are all entitled to our own opinions about this and if we consider ourselves clean that's what matters. If someone didn't want to sponsor me because I was using subs or meth, I would respect their opinion as well.
Everyone is different and our recovery is different so we have to work our recovery our own way. Afterall, a sponsor is also an addict fighting to stay clean, so if they are uncomfortable it is best for them to say no.
Bottom line we are all addicts taking it one day at a time. None of us are experts.
Would I expect to be supported by NA or AA if I was? YES
We are all entitled to our own opinions about this and if we consider ourselves clean that's what matters. If someone didn't want to sponsor me because I was using subs or meth, I would respect their opinion as well.
Everyone is different and our recovery is different so we have to work our recovery our own way. Afterall, a sponsor is also an addict fighting to stay clean, so if they are uncomfortable it is best for them to say no.
Bottom line we are all addicts taking it one day at a time. None of us are experts.
I think Barb indeed raised some awesome questions!
From zoey's link:
"Suggesting that those who have used any drug within the last twenty-four hours refrain from sharing, but encouraging them to get together with members during the break or after the meeting."
See, this is the kind of stuff, while I understand the THEORY behind it, I think can be very alienating. It's one thing if someone comes in completely blotto, obviously that would be counterproductive to an AA/NA meeting..but in the instance of someone on Sub, 99+% of the people I've been exposed to are not "intoxicated"...they are just like anyone else. If they are not overmedicated, a person would never even KNOW they were on subs!
I honestly think, as with anything, there's always room for improvement. I think these organizations would probably benefit from taking a closer look at these issues, especially because Sub has become a reality...and maybe clarify their positions a bit? A lot of people DO take that route to get clean, whether one approves of that or not. The issues Barb raised are good ones too...if somone is Rx'ed a benzo for anxiety, that's a mind altering substance, would the same rules apply? Seems like there are many issues that could go either way.
I would agree that perhaps maybe the one limitation for someone on sub would be a progression into a leadership role, but even that is something that could be looked at. I think it would be an AWESOME resource to have people with experience with subs in a position of leadership (or at least regular participation)...to be available to guide those people who have chosen that path. Why could there not be more than one "kind" of sponsor? You could actually really help people, both by making the sub user feel just as equal to everyone else, while at the same time, teaching and encouraging them to progress toward getting off Sub (those who aren't choosing long term Sub). Basically, not a "one size fits all" program. You could have the folks following the more traditional guidelines, and people available to help those who are using a replacerment medication.
I think the guidelines themselves are confusing. From what I've read...someone prescribed a legit Rx for pain by a doctor, who isn't abusing it...would be okay, no issues there with being "clean". Yet, those on sub and methadone are considered not clean. I think that's a muddy area,. IMO.
I do understand the view behind the sub/meth issue and respect it, but my honest take on it, in this day and age, it seems perhaps a bit antiquated and out dated. Even with the best intentions, if an organization is going to alter the program, or the rules of the program for one group of people...it's absolutely going to lead to people feeling unwelcomed, alienated and judged...and in an organization like that, I think that is sending a very mixed message.
Like I said...there's always room for change...I think this kind of issue should be looked into a bit more, and maybe some of the guidelines adapted, considering how very common it is for people these days to choose sub.
Again, like I said, I think the strictness of the guidelines greatly varies from location to location. I had patients who were turned away for being on sub, and that's probably more of a reflection of the local leadership, versus the organization as a whole. There should be more uniformity of the guidelines.
Basically, these patients were (nicely) told they would be welcomed back at meetings after they finished their sub program. From what you guys have said, that's not really the way it's supposed to work...but I think it's important to know that it IS happening, and of course that is going to leave a bad taste in the mouths of those people who were turned away. I'm pretty sure none of them had any plans to return. I know I wouldn't.
God love you who are active in these groups...you probably help so many people. I think this is a very important discussion, and I think there truly needs to be more awareness. Like I said before, maybe the answer would be to start a whole new organization who didn't have those exceptions...that way, no one in the existing groups would feel like they are ever being asked to compromise their principles? I don't know.
All very good info and points from everyone. I appreciate the opportunity to learn more about it.
From zoey's link:
"Suggesting that those who have used any drug within the last twenty-four hours refrain from sharing, but encouraging them to get together with members during the break or after the meeting."
See, this is the kind of stuff, while I understand the THEORY behind it, I think can be very alienating. It's one thing if someone comes in completely blotto, obviously that would be counterproductive to an AA/NA meeting..but in the instance of someone on Sub, 99+% of the people I've been exposed to are not "intoxicated"...they are just like anyone else. If they are not overmedicated, a person would never even KNOW they were on subs!
I honestly think, as with anything, there's always room for improvement. I think these organizations would probably benefit from taking a closer look at these issues, especially because Sub has become a reality...and maybe clarify their positions a bit? A lot of people DO take that route to get clean, whether one approves of that or not. The issues Barb raised are good ones too...if somone is Rx'ed a benzo for anxiety, that's a mind altering substance, would the same rules apply? Seems like there are many issues that could go either way.
I would agree that perhaps maybe the one limitation for someone on sub would be a progression into a leadership role, but even that is something that could be looked at. I think it would be an AWESOME resource to have people with experience with subs in a position of leadership (or at least regular participation)...to be available to guide those people who have chosen that path. Why could there not be more than one "kind" of sponsor? You could actually really help people, both by making the sub user feel just as equal to everyone else, while at the same time, teaching and encouraging them to progress toward getting off Sub (those who aren't choosing long term Sub). Basically, not a "one size fits all" program. You could have the folks following the more traditional guidelines, and people available to help those who are using a replacerment medication.
I think the guidelines themselves are confusing. From what I've read...someone prescribed a legit Rx for pain by a doctor, who isn't abusing it...would be okay, no issues there with being "clean". Yet, those on sub and methadone are considered not clean. I think that's a muddy area,. IMO.
I do understand the view behind the sub/meth issue and respect it, but my honest take on it, in this day and age, it seems perhaps a bit antiquated and out dated. Even with the best intentions, if an organization is going to alter the program, or the rules of the program for one group of people...it's absolutely going to lead to people feeling unwelcomed, alienated and judged...and in an organization like that, I think that is sending a very mixed message.
Like I said...there's always room for change...I think this kind of issue should be looked into a bit more, and maybe some of the guidelines adapted, considering how very common it is for people these days to choose sub.
Again, like I said, I think the strictness of the guidelines greatly varies from location to location. I had patients who were turned away for being on sub, and that's probably more of a reflection of the local leadership, versus the organization as a whole. There should be more uniformity of the guidelines.
Basically, these patients were (nicely) told they would be welcomed back at meetings after they finished their sub program. From what you guys have said, that's not really the way it's supposed to work...but I think it's important to know that it IS happening, and of course that is going to leave a bad taste in the mouths of those people who were turned away. I'm pretty sure none of them had any plans to return. I know I wouldn't.
God love you who are active in these groups...you probably help so many people. I think this is a very important discussion, and I think there truly needs to be more awareness. Like I said before, maybe the answer would be to start a whole new organization who didn't have those exceptions...that way, no one in the existing groups would feel like they are ever being asked to compromise their principles? I don't know.
All very good info and points from everyone. I appreciate the opportunity to learn more about it.
I just came home from my Sunday night NA meeting, I also go to AA. I've been in 12-step groups since 1982. Took one vicodin 4 years ago and all hell broke loose.
WOW! over 50 replies in 6 hours! This is a great post. It's excellent fodder for discussion in this community. We're blessed to all be able to all chip in on this and provide our community with our thoughts on this important subject. I didn't read all the replies, hope I'm not repeating anything. If I am, pls forgive me.
First, my 63 year old brother in law will be on Sub for the rest of his life he tells me. He can't get off of them, and has a never ending script from his doctor. He's never been to a 12-step meeting in his life. He just did too much opiate for way too long. He now seems normal to me. Much more normal than when he used. He'd nod off on us at family gatherings when he was using. Always a great guy. I love him very much.
The 3rd tradition in AA and NA for membership: the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking / using. So you're a member when you say you are.
In AA we go by the Big Book, written around 1936. Nowhere in the book does it say we can't take meds from a doctor. In fact on page 133 it says doctors are a gift from God to help us with illness. One of the questions we always ask when someone is into quoting questionable "rules": "Please show us where it says that in the Big Book?" The big book only addresses alcohol and alcoholism. But all other 12-step programs are based on the perspective of that book. That book has saved lives, like mine.
Now in NA the post subject in question is actually spelled out on pages 102 and 103 of our basic text, written in 1952. But It only addresses pain and the narcotics given for them. Not Sub or any other drug. The bottom line written on page 103: "...we need to feel no guilt after having taken a minimum amount of medication prescribed by a informed physician for extreme pain." They address pain meds but nothing else. So that leaves group members to draw their own conclusions about other meds I guess, and leaves room for judgement sometimes. When they say "informed physician" they expect you to tell your doctor you're an addict, right off the bat. It also says elsewhere in the book "in NA we practice complete abstinence from all drugs. NA calls alcohol a drug (which it is). I know some people on depression meds, some on pain meds, they talk about it some times, and they are highly regarded at our NA meetings here in Detroit.
Those are my humble and feeble thoughts on this really good subject. Time to watch our Amazing Race recording!
WOW! over 50 replies in 6 hours! This is a great post. It's excellent fodder for discussion in this community. We're blessed to all be able to all chip in on this and provide our community with our thoughts on this important subject. I didn't read all the replies, hope I'm not repeating anything. If I am, pls forgive me.
First, my 63 year old brother in law will be on Sub for the rest of his life he tells me. He can't get off of them, and has a never ending script from his doctor. He's never been to a 12-step meeting in his life. He just did too much opiate for way too long. He now seems normal to me. Much more normal than when he used. He'd nod off on us at family gatherings when he was using. Always a great guy. I love him very much.
The 3rd tradition in AA and NA for membership: the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking / using. So you're a member when you say you are.
In AA we go by the Big Book, written around 1936. Nowhere in the book does it say we can't take meds from a doctor. In fact on page 133 it says doctors are a gift from God to help us with illness. One of the questions we always ask when someone is into quoting questionable "rules": "Please show us where it says that in the Big Book?" The big book only addresses alcohol and alcoholism. But all other 12-step programs are based on the perspective of that book. That book has saved lives, like mine.
Now in NA the post subject in question is actually spelled out on pages 102 and 103 of our basic text, written in 1952. But It only addresses pain and the narcotics given for them. Not Sub or any other drug. The bottom line written on page 103: "...we need to feel no guilt after having taken a minimum amount of medication prescribed by a informed physician for extreme pain." They address pain meds but nothing else. So that leaves group members to draw their own conclusions about other meds I guess, and leaves room for judgement sometimes. When they say "informed physician" they expect you to tell your doctor you're an addict, right off the bat. It also says elsewhere in the book "in NA we practice complete abstinence from all drugs. NA calls alcohol a drug (which it is). I know some people on depression meds, some on pain meds, they talk about it some times, and they are highly regarded at our NA meetings here in Detroit.
Those are my humble and feeble thoughts on this really good subject. Time to watch our Amazing Race recording!
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