Maybe controversial, but needs perspective

[JephWyte]

Ok this is one of many suboxone related threads you will see on this site. I have a personal opinion on suboxone and methadone (maintence meds) due to my years on and off them between aactive runs of heroin. Whether or not they work is up for debate and really based off individual experience, BUT.. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the notion that it's considered being "clean". I never considered myself clean while on suboxone or methadone becuase once 12-24 hours went by I would be sick and NEED more even if I had to rob, hurt somebody or shoot dope again. I would see some people on this site say "It's great to be clean and on suboxone now" (paraphrasing of course) and in actuality, it's awesome if it's helping you restore some order in your life, it didn't for me but I know many people who it did help and some of them managed to come off from there and have substantial clean/sober time now. I bring this all up because I had an experience lately that I needed to pray and meditate on. I have gone through my steps and began sponsoring other people. I took in a sponsee last week and gave him an assignment to read and prepare for step 1. When he came in we discussed his back story and he told me he had 3 months... thanks to suboxone. I felt bad but I couldn't ethically keep him as a sponsee. I got support from %99 of people I know in recovery but have received some criticism as well. I guess the reason I get so jaded about it is because I did the suboxone route, and it held me over for a while, but the REAL work began when I had to stop EVERYTHING and make the honest effort to get my life back and be truly sober. I don't want to come off as cynical and don't intend to undermine anybodys success so far with those meds, I'm just trying to make sense out of where people are coming from sometimes and didn't know if anyone here with long term recovery and involvement with the fellowship has dealt with anything similar in sponsor/sponsee relationships.

[ricart70]

I believe na has a little more tolerance and flexibility when it comes to these issues.I think it is always good to be more inclusive especially since the success rates can't really get much lower anyway.It all really comes down to helping more people to get and stay clean or preserving an organization imo

[VICourageous]

This is a good one I just posted about how important aftercare is for me in MY recovery.before I seen this one!!!!!  We had a sub/methedone/opiate Dr attend one of our meetings because he wanted to know if they could come to NA while using. We are not to judge or refuse anyone because of the grace of god they will come clean. They are trying in their own way. WHAT EVER WORKS TO GET CLEAN...Anyway alot of people who are taking this route feel they get looked at or whatever. We opened some special NA meetings for the people who are useing but have all intends to come clean......so whatever works for who is working it.....
God Bless us All
vvic

[OpenMind24hours]

Thank you both. I love these discussions also, especially this one. I indeed sensed my B-I-L had much more energy sometimes. I agree, you're absolutely not void of narcotics when on sub. I thank God I didn't go that far. But it's a yet, out there lurking.

As long as the person in recovery is honest about it at the meetings, in most places they will be accepted, but still judged by some. Human nature. Some would rather look at everyone else instead of at themselves. Kathy, one of my favorite persons in the world, comes down to our Friday night NA meeting, at a big old church on the SW side, on the elevator. She's on a walker, and also on Norco. She has 33 years clean. When it's her turn to speak, we hang on her every word. She has a wonderful program of recovery going. She's a blessed person, but in bad phy shape.

Could you imagine if the NA basic text or AA Big Book had a disclaimer, "program subject to change without notice". Or, sorry folks, new tradition: Your as sober as your health allows you. If you get old, or injured, you're on your own if you use drugs for the pain, or anxiety, or depression. As far as I know, and I think you'll agree, "abuse" is the key word here. 71 year old Kathy doesn't abuse the stuff.  At my NA home group we make the announcement "If you've used today please just listen. But also be sure to get with someone and talk to them after the meeting". After being out using, I held off going to my 1st meeting in 21 months for a week while I detoxed. I had a lot to get off my chest and needed to talk.

And I can't begin to tell you how this discussion has also helped me with an issue I obviously have. 4 years ago When I first tried Vicodin, and it did nothing for my pain, I was honest about it by stupidly telling my AA table the next day. I got judged. Not by everyone, but a few key ppl I greatly respected and learned from.  I have the personality type where I dwell on the bad stuff and ignore the good stuff sometimes, even with the 27 1/2 years of pure clean-time I had until then. King Robert with his 27 years time got his pride smashed. Eventually I fell apart and I went out. Being an addict, all my drugs marched back into my life, like I never stopped in the first place. My doctor gave me the script, but "I" made that choice and filled it to see if it would help my pain; and it didn't. The 2nd bad choice was to save the remaining 89 hits for a rainy day. And the judging and gossip brought on the rain storm because I dwell on the bad stuff. Judging and gossip is human nature, to be expected anywhere humans are. So, this time around I'm working on CHANGE. I can't change human nature, so If I don't change myself, nothing changes.

[nursegirl6572]

This is why I like these kinds of discussions, it's very educational, and the diifferent points made are important to consider.  Like myself, I often have that mindset that the COMPLIANT Sub user isn't "high" per se, but your point about the varying defining qualities is really a good one.  I'm sure for the recovery groups, that's where the hang up is...and it's really a legit conflict.

[nursegirl6572]

That's a very fair statement.  I think most people assume "high" means visibly intoxicated, or altered.  You're absolutely right that while a person on sub may not to "high" in that respect, iot certainly elevates the mood, gives energy, etc.  Sub has a lot of great anti-depressant qualities, which of course isn't so great when a person tapers off.  Many struggle with the emotional stuff significantly.

Very good post!  

[ricart70]

A person that is on subs is still on an opiate.The bupenorphine is an opiate with a ceiling effect which means there is a limit to how much it affects you.Their frame of mind is not the same as someone who is not on an opiate or especially someone who was addicted and are no longer using any substance to alter their mind.If I took a suboxone right now I am dead sure positive that I would experience a great shift in my mood and perception of my feelings and my life.I really think when you are talking about opiates the word high has a broad and ambiguous meaning when it comes to trying to define it from one person to another.Also it is quite relative to where a person is at in there addiction as far as tolerance,potency,dose,etc. After all it is more or less a folk term.