Aa
Maybe controversial, but needs perspective
Ok this is one of many suboxone related threads you will see on this site. I have a personal opinion on suboxone and methadone (maintence meds) due to my years on and off them between aactive runs of heroin. Whether or not they work is up for debate and really based off individual experience, BUT.. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the notion that it's considered being "clean". I never considered myself clean while on suboxone or methadone becuase once 12-24 hours went by I would be sick and NEED more even if I had to rob, hurt somebody or shoot dope again. I would see some people on this site say "It's great to be clean and on suboxone now" (paraphrasing of course) and in actuality, it's awesome if it's helping you restore some order in your life, it didn't for me but I know many people who it did help and some of them managed to come off from there and have substantial clean/sober time now. I bring this all up because I had an experience lately that I needed to pray and meditate on. I have gone through my steps and began sponsoring other people. I took in a sponsee last week and gave him an assignment to read and prepare for step 1. When he came in we discussed his back story and he told me he had 3 months... thanks to suboxone. I felt bad but I couldn't ethically keep him as a sponsee. I got support from %99 of people I know in recovery but have received some criticism as well. I guess the reason I get so jaded about it is because I did the suboxone route, and it held me over for a while, but the REAL work began when I had to stop EVERYTHING and make the honest effort to get my life back and be truly sober. I don't want to come off as cynical and don't intend to undermine anybodys success so far with those meds, I'm just trying to make sense out of where people are coming from sometimes and didn't know if anyone here with long term recovery and involvement with the fellowship has dealt with anything similar in sponsor/sponsee relationships.
Sadly, sub is definitely not abuse-proof. For most people, a high doesn't come super easily with sub, but like anything else, anything is possible. While the blocker (naloxone) offers a small aspect of an opiate blocker in suboxone...the MAIN reason most people cannot get high on other opiates while on subs is because of how the buprenorphine fills the opiate receptors. Basically, in simple terms, there isn't room for anything else. Bupe fills the receptors up to about 95%, even a bit more. So, you can see that there isn't room for much more. The opiate blocker is more of a mental deterrant than anything.
Vicki is probably right that the fellowship most likely won't change it's guidelines, and in fairness, they have been around for a long time...I can respect that.
Suboxone is definitely abused, like anything else, you'll find people who really WANT to get clean and who are using it responsibly and as directed, then you have the people who are either abusing it, or just using it to stave off w/d until they get access to their DOC again. I guess in theory, it would be kind of hard to weed out who's who.
There are other sober programs available which Sub and methadone users should be involved in to begin with... .
See, I respectfully disagree. I don't think there is ENOUGH resources, especially considering that in some circumstances, some of the local AA/NA meetings may not allow a person to fully benefit from the program, and some who ask those using sub/meth to return only when they had completed their programs (not a judgement there, just stating the facts).
The GOOD sub programs have their own therapy but, once the program is complete, they're done. I know the clinic I worked for made biweekly therapy (group and private) a requirement for the program, but as far as the aftercare plans, people were encouraged to start attending AA/NA meetings....which is when some of the people ran into some problems. I guess the best way to approach that would be for the clinics to just recommend them starting the meetings after they were done. The downfall there is, sometimes people are on sub or methadone for a significant amount of time...and those people absolutely could benefit from those types of meetings along the way...especially if they're struggling. I think the additional meetings would be so helpful to those people.
Again, maybe it's just more of a consistency issue...or a matter of these organizations finding a way to incorporate those kinds of addicts into the programs, without alienating them, or making them feel judged or unworthy. Because clearly, the variation from meeting to meeting to ME seems to be an issue. Those who are familiar with these groups here have said those people are absolutely welcomed and encouraged to be there, where others are turning them away. And there's no way around hurting a person's feelings in the event someone has to tell them they can't fully participate in every aspect of the program. There just has to be a way to adapt to include those people, without sacrificing those important fundamental beliefs.
I think the idea of starting a new organization, similar in theory to a 12-step program, where med replacement treatments could be incorporated into the fundamental process, is a great idea. The people could learn similar steps to recvoery, while they would be encouraged to taper off the sub/methadone, or in the instances where a person chooses long-term sub/meth, there wouldn't be that conflict that exists with the current programs, whose fundamental principles are built around what it means to be clean...because most certainly, sub and methadone blurs those issues.
I think it would be possible to adapt those groups, to basically include two types of meetings, two types of sponsorship, and two kinds of principles. I would love to hear what you guys think about that...those of you who have experience in these groups. Would you think something like that would be possible? Is it more of an issue where you feel the sub/meth user is not on the same level as you in their recovery? I could see that that would be a conflict. Do you think anyone with any length of time in these groups would even CONSIDER even a discussion about that?
Suboxone is definitely abused, like anything else, you'll find people who really WANT to get clean and who are using it responsibly and as directed, then you have the people who are either abusing it, or just using it to stave off w/d until they get access to their DOC again. I guess in theory, it would be kind of hard to weed out who's who.
There are other sober programs available which Sub and methadone users should be involved in to begin with... .
See, I respectfully disagree. I don't think there is ENOUGH resources, especially considering that in some circumstances, some of the local AA/NA meetings may not allow a person to fully benefit from the program, and some who ask those using sub/meth to return only when they had completed their programs (not a judgement there, just stating the facts).
The GOOD sub programs have their own therapy but, once the program is complete, they're done. I know the clinic I worked for made biweekly therapy (group and private) a requirement for the program, but as far as the aftercare plans, people were encouraged to start attending AA/NA meetings....which is when some of the people ran into some problems. I guess the best way to approach that would be for the clinics to just recommend them starting the meetings after they were done. The downfall there is, sometimes people are on sub or methadone for a significant amount of time...and those people absolutely could benefit from those types of meetings along the way...especially if they're struggling. I think the additional meetings would be so helpful to those people.
Again, maybe it's just more of a consistency issue...or a matter of these organizations finding a way to incorporate those kinds of addicts into the programs, without alienating them, or making them feel judged or unworthy. Because clearly, the variation from meeting to meeting to ME seems to be an issue. Those who are familiar with these groups here have said those people are absolutely welcomed and encouraged to be there, where others are turning them away. And there's no way around hurting a person's feelings in the event someone has to tell them they can't fully participate in every aspect of the program. There just has to be a way to adapt to include those people, without sacrificing those important fundamental beliefs.
I think the idea of starting a new organization, similar in theory to a 12-step program, where med replacement treatments could be incorporated into the fundamental process, is a great idea. The people could learn similar steps to recvoery, while they would be encouraged to taper off the sub/methadone, or in the instances where a person chooses long-term sub/meth, there wouldn't be that conflict that exists with the current programs, whose fundamental principles are built around what it means to be clean...because most certainly, sub and methadone blurs those issues.
I think it would be possible to adapt those groups, to basically include two types of meetings, two types of sponsorship, and two kinds of principles. I would love to hear what you guys think about that...those of you who have experience in these groups. Would you think something like that would be possible? Is it more of an issue where you feel the sub/meth user is not on the same level as you in their recovery? I could see that that would be a conflict. Do you think anyone with any length of time in these groups would even CONSIDER even a discussion about that?
Thanks for the info.
When my brother-in-law went on it a few years ago I looked it up. It's info-sheet description that is included with the script is what made me think it was abuse-proof: Suboxone is used to treat narcotic (opioid) dependence/addiction. It contains 2 medicines: buprenorphine and naloxone. Buprenorphine helps prevent withdrawal symptoms caused by stopping other opiate-type narcotics. Naloxone is a narcotic antagonist that blocks the effect of narcotics and can cause severe narcotic withdrawal when injected. Withdrawal is less likely when naloxone is taken by mouth or dissolved under the tongue. It is combined with buprenorphine to prevent abuse and misuse (injection) of this medication. This combination medication is used as part of a complete treatment program for drug abuse (such as compliance monitoring, counseling, behavioral contract, lifestyle changes).
After reading that description I knew my B-I-L wouldn't abuse it. He was desperate to get clean from pain pills. He's pretty much done getting high and happy to be alive, now enjoying his grandchildren, just like myself.
It seems a drug that blocks the effect of narcotics, used to treat narcotic dependence/addiction is a step in the right direction in getting clean for the patient using it. It's for very low bottom cases who didn't have much of a chance before it came on the market. You'd think today's 12-step group members would give ppl who don't abuse it, and have the desire to get clean, some credit. These ppl need all the 12th step help us in recovery can muster because they WANT to finally get clean. That's the ticket. And this was the spirit of Bill Wilson and doctor Bob when they went to a hospital in 1936 to try and help alcoholic number 3. Those two took part in a true miracle that saved, and is still saving, millions of addicts and alcoholics from certain death.
When my brother-in-law went on it a few years ago I looked it up. It's info-sheet description that is included with the script is what made me think it was abuse-proof: Suboxone is used to treat narcotic (opioid) dependence/addiction. It contains 2 medicines: buprenorphine and naloxone. Buprenorphine helps prevent withdrawal symptoms caused by stopping other opiate-type narcotics. Naloxone is a narcotic antagonist that blocks the effect of narcotics and can cause severe narcotic withdrawal when injected. Withdrawal is less likely when naloxone is taken by mouth or dissolved under the tongue. It is combined with buprenorphine to prevent abuse and misuse (injection) of this medication. This combination medication is used as part of a complete treatment program for drug abuse (such as compliance monitoring, counseling, behavioral contract, lifestyle changes).
After reading that description I knew my B-I-L wouldn't abuse it. He was desperate to get clean from pain pills. He's pretty much done getting high and happy to be alive, now enjoying his grandchildren, just like myself.
It seems a drug that blocks the effect of narcotics, used to treat narcotic dependence/addiction is a step in the right direction in getting clean for the patient using it. It's for very low bottom cases who didn't have much of a chance before it came on the market. You'd think today's 12-step group members would give ppl who don't abuse it, and have the desire to get clean, some credit. These ppl need all the 12th step help us in recovery can muster because they WANT to finally get clean. That's the ticket. And this was the spirit of Bill Wilson and doctor Bob when they went to a hospital in 1936 to try and help alcoholic number 3. Those two took part in a true miracle that saved, and is still saving, millions of addicts and alcoholics from certain death.
no subs are easily abused and are sold commonly at street level.
I don't know many addicts(myself included) that will buy something in an attempt to not get high.
I don't know many addicts(myself included) that will buy something in an attempt to not get high.
Question: Are subs mind altering? Does the user still feel high? I was under the impression that my brother in law felt normal, the subs just keep WDs at bay.
I doubt the fellowship is going to change its mind about the use of opiates. The whole premise is abstinence for members. That's the way it is and the way they roll. There are other sober programs available which Sub and methadone users should be involved in to begin with...
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