please help - 4 days clean and maybe abut to blow it

[codean]

I've posted here a few times and have a fuller biog in my tracker. long story short, long term codeine abuser - up to 1800 mg per day. ouch. I  tapered down pretty quickly then went ct . I'm doing ok, bad stomach, muscle ache etc. etc. but i can bear thst. what i can' bear is no sleep. in the last 72hours (not including today,i've had maybe 2-3hrs total. I'vetried using diazepam tosleepbut even on a high dose - 70-80mg it makes no difference. I'm finding myself thinking thst if Iuse one more timejust to get some sleep, that'll help me with the next few days. I'm rationalising it on the basis that it would be no more thana prescription dose so it's no big deal. I know that's probably wrong, and I can almost guess what people will say if they read this, but what's worse, no sleep for 4 days, swallowing enough Valium to drop a horse or a bit of codeine? Say, 150mg? Would that even help? I think it would.

[swart]

Just bloody stop. You know inside that you have to. If you are using alcohol as well you are on the road to hell....I am not preaching, I know because I have been there. Also if you have a drinking problem give AA a real go as what you say about it is not true and I suggest you try another group. As for your wife finding out.....I'll bet you she knows already and is waiting for you to take action....that's the answer my friend...ACTION.....words are cheap it's what you DO that counts.
I am clean and sober 26 years.
***@****        Go for it!!

[codean]

Unbelievably, I slept too! Got a real 8 hrs! Admittedly it was at completely the wrong time 8AM to 4PM but hey, I'll take whatever. Like you, I hope this wasn't a one off - like maybe I just dropped from exhaustion but here's hoping...

I'm really glad you got some good sleep and intrigued about the melatonin. It'll be a while before I have any of that in my hands but in the meanwhile I bought an OTC sleep remedy today so maybe that'll help...

[bigalspal]

Hi friend,
I'm so glad you found other supportive frieds, cause guess what!
I slept like baby!!!! Yea! Here's what I did. I took one 3mg of Melatonin & ONE 10mg Vaium about an hr before we started talking & I went to bed. I read about a chapter of my new book & that's the last thing I remember!
I woked up at 5:45 am. So I'm thinking it was around 7 hrs of blissful sleep. I would've stayed in bed a little longer but I had to use the bathroom.
I'm gioing to try it without the Valium tonight. I'm thinking it's the Melatonin because the Valium never touched it before. OR...maybe it's just the natural progression of things.
Boy, I'm hoping that's the case. Valium does nothing for me as far as a high goes & I really want to be off all drugs.
I'm sorry if I sound like I'm so happy because I know you can't sleep yet (and I don't know yet if this is an isolated thing) but I'm hoping it will help you know that it does get better. Maybe I won't sleep tonight, but I'll take what I can get.
Oh, a carton of cig are 10 packs.
If I could stop smoking I could really help my husband with our budget.
One drug at a time.
Bigalspal  

[LittleLebowski]

Hi, I'm new here. Props to you for going clean. I'm still working on dropping vikes. I tapered off, and I've never really done a very high dosage for long, but I've found that ambien is the best and fastest sleeping aid you can get. Although ambien shouldn't be used for long, because it's also addictive, it dosn't cause withdrawals like opiates do. I've taken it before after I stopped doing percs like a year ago and I was able to stop after like a month by taking some diphenhydramine HCI for 2-3 nights and then stopping that too (unless I was having a rough night). I started doing those vikes again bwhen the blasted Dr. almost killed me when he banded a hemmorhoid so he gave me a shiny new bottle of painkillers :-) I guess I'm just lucky he didn't give me percs because I wouldn't have been able to stop. I've been clean for almost 3 days now, and I've still got a little bit of that cold feeling in my back, but otherwise it's been much easier than my perc withdrawals. I started pilfering more pills from my dad (from his knee surgery) but I had to stop becuase I didn't want him to notice the bottles getting low. Anyhow the first 2 days you don't really have a problem sleeping cause you're always tired, but after that is when I'm going to need the ambien which I've also gotten, compliments of various family members :-) Nobody ever suspects me as an addict because till like 3 years ago I wouldn't even take OTC drugs because I didn't want to ingest foreign substances. Anyhow my friend gave me some percs which made smoking cigs much much better, and then my car got hit by a drunk dude and the doc gave me loads of percs 10/325, which got me hooked. I stopped then but it was really hard, and now I'm stopping again. Good luck to you on the codeine abstinence, and hope you sleep well. You could always smoke enough weed to pass out if you're desperate and it doesn't make your heart race too much (I've never really liked it).

[codean]

thanks for your good wishes. First couple of days I too bad to concentrate ona book, now I can so maybe I should try it again... I was looking for my current book earlier but I can't remeber where I've put it! I never had any trouble sleeping after giving up booze, but I could never give up booze on my own - always had to go to hospital to do it. This time I can give up on my own but the lack of sleep is unbearable. I can't even nap during the day and if I could I'd be scared that it would make it even less likely that I could sleep at night. I'm really pinning my hopes on nytol now, I'm going to buy a truckload tomorrow!

Now, where's my book...?

[lboogie7729]

I can't imagine how much a pack of smokes cost where you live! I read what you said about leaving the tv on and sometimes television has the reverse effect, it's stimulating and keeps you awake. Have you tried a hot bath and a relaxing book? I've caught myself about to fall asleep in the tub reading before. I know the first few weeks can be pretty miserable with the sleep deprivation. I went through insomnia and restless sleep when I quit drinking and smoking pot. I just read until I felt like I was going cross eyed, soaked in the tub till I was becoming a prune and napped during the day if I could even if only for a few minutes. I am wishing you luck with this and hoping it gets better soon!

[codean]

by carton I guess you mean like 10 boxes or something? Here in the UK 20 cigs costs £5.50 which is around $8. It's next on my list to give up, just as soon as I get through this one however long that takes. Where in the states are you btw?
That trip for cigs has confirmed that I won't be going to work tomorrow. deserted roads at 4am and I felt floaty behind the wheel 2.5 hr drive to a meeting tomorrow morning - perhaps not. I'm just hoping and praying that when I buy some nytol tomorrow, that'll nail the sleep problem.

I don't have any friends who use anything so I have no options there. Man, my life is falling apart! And yet, I'm thinking, ok I've had a couple of small doses of codeine to try and help me sleep the last couple of nights but I could easily not have done if it wasn't for the lack of sleep. 1 week ago,the thought of going a day without a substantial intake of codeine was impossible, now I know I can do it easily. It's just this friggin sleep thing. AAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!

I hope for my sake you're still up, for your sake you;ve gone to sleep.

[bigalspal]

What I meant by "friends" was I would call a girlfriend & ask for a few of her Benzo's & if she could spare a few, well then I would use them in the first week of WD.
Maybe not orthdox, but a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do. My one friend will not come off her many meds, but she supports me in my quest.
Well, friend, I smoke too.
That's my next project because I can't really afford to smoke anymore. My last carton of cigs were $40. Some states are twice as much, like in California. At least that's what I've heard.
It's after 10pm here. If you don't hear back from me it ment I went to sleep!
But, I doubt it.
I'll let you know.
Bigalspal

[codean]

how do you get detox meds through friends? I'm pretty sure my doc would just refer me to the drug service, (another waiting list), then if I said I didn't want inpatient cos I couldn't wait that long maybe they'd offer a psych (more waiting). ****, maybe it's worth one try begging on hands on knees to my doc explaining all that.

Just to complicate matters further, I have no doc, it's a series of locums so you never know who you'll see. Plus, I'm worried about having this on my medical record...

****, it's 4am, I'm still awake and now I'm gonna go out and buy cigarettes. Back in 10 mins.

[bigalspal]

I guess it depends on the DR.
I was in pain mgt for 2 cervical surgeries & have a really bad back.
My Dr was not understanding at all. Not in the way you might think.
He told me I could not survive without narcotics, that the pain would be too bad.
He offered every narcotic under the sun, including Methadone (pill form) to replace the Fentanyl. I know it had to be GOD that helped me walk out of his office.
I've NEVER turned down narcotics from a DR.
But, I would think MOST DRr's would appreciate your honesty & help you.
I bet he would help you with detox meds, too.
Most Dr's are pretty nice, I think.
I hope he/she helps you. If not you'll have to either get the detox meds elsewhere (friends) or just go with supplements, OTC meds ect. I've done it both ways.
Whaterever works!

[codean]

I've been trying the TV sleepy thing for days, doesn't work, so then I turn it off and after a while of no sleep, give up and turn it on again! I'm in London and whilst is possible to buy codeine OTC in cough syrup form, many pharmacies don't sell it and ALL are extremely vigilant about it.Thing is, I found a crooked pharmacy assistant who supplied me with as much as I wanted - generally 3 dozen bottles a week, 200 ml per bottle, 15mg codeine per 5ml. I drank it like water.
It isn't necessary to wait 6 months for treatment, I could leave my house now and be admitted somewhere within a couple of hours BUT yes it's expensive like $1300 per night. I know because I've done it about 6 times for alcohol but money is tighter now and I think this problem is a bit different to alcohol where I could check in for justa few days to clean up and then get out again. First time I went was on medical insurance and I was there for about 3 weeks - no chance of me paying for that and I don't think a few days would sort this one - I'e already proved I can do that on my own. The 6 months is for NHS treatment which is free. Problem is, it might be free but I'd come out to no wife and child so not really an option right now. That's real last resort stuff - like I'm going to die if I don't. Fact is, I felt quite healthy taking the codeine but the crooked pharmacist has left and tracking down enough codeine to feed my habit is a full time job so I decided to stop. Stock piled enough to taper down to an amount from which I could stop and here I am. If only it weren't for the sleep problem I know 100% I can do this. What do you think, if I came clean to my doc and said, look I candeal with evr=erything else but I've got to sleep... It's not going to work is it?

[bigalspal]

Sorry it took me so to get back to you. I've been trying to get sleepy by watching TV.
I can at least focus again. Not as restless as I was, thank goodness.
Where are you located in the UK, if you don't mind me asking? I have a distant cousin who I talk to all the time. He lives in the Midlands. He works for the goverment & gets so many minutes a week to call anywhere, & he calls me every couple of weeks.
I also have family on my Mother's side over In Cork, Ireland.
My husband's cousin lives in Belfast. On the protestant side. We were supposed to be there this year, but I lost my job. The economy.
My husband & I connected with our "across the pond" families through DNA testing a few years ago. LOTS of Anglo-Irish-Scot-Irish bllod in us! Most of we Americans are mutts! LOL!
Anyway, I take 6mg's of Melatonin a day. Unfortunatly, (spelling again) I think I messed up my sleep again tonight. I was watching "The Tudors" (I know YOU know what I'm talking about), & my body just shut down for a couple of hours. Hopefully it will do it again tonight. If not, I'll muddle through & be greatful for what sleep I did get.
I read somewhere that Melatonin is illegal over the counter in Germany. That's weird.
Can you get it in the UK?
I tell you codean, if your drug of choice of sold OTC here in the US, I'd be dead by now!
Of course the US has many sins to account for as well.
When I first took my first narcotic when I was 22, I had no idea what it was going to do to me. I was so young & my childhood home had no pills or alcohol in it. I really was ignorant of addiction. I took it for real pain, from a real DR.
Of course I blame myself for all my relaspses. I went to treatment for the first time in 1988. I had the tools, but didn't use them.
WE don't have to wait 6months for treatment over here, but it's soooo expensive!
So, I told my husband that I could do it at home since I'm not working & have the house to myself. My husband travels for his job, so I really have been greatful to have the time & space to do it at home. Our kids check in by phone & have been down this road before, so they have their own lives & know I'll see them soon.
We can do this! If you are around 40, you know it's time as well. 51 & 40 are 2 very different ages. If you don't believe me, you will in 10 years or so!
Talk to you again soon,
Bigalspal

[codean]

I should also have said thanks for taking the time to write to me, it all helps.

[codean]

wow, I feel Ihave a lot of friends tonight - which is great. Previous attempts to post haven;t been very successful. You're right, I don't like your truth. Like you, I need a good 7-8 hours minimum to function. Day 1 and 2 I got no sleep at all. Day 3 got about 2hours of very poor sleep. Last night I got 5-6 as a result of a bunch of valium and a bit of codeine - as  a result I feel more human. Rubbish but bettter, hell, I even managed to eat a bit today. It scares me witless that you're 20 days clean and still only getting 3 hours sleep. I;m scared that addiction will follow me all my days. It's been with me for 15 years already. Until 2-3 years ago it was always alcohol but I stumbled on codeine and well, you know the rest. People keep talkingabout melatonin. How much do you take?
I think if I went to my doctor I'd just be told to go to the local drug/alcohol centre who would offer me inpatient treatment in about 6 months (waiting list) and wouldn't prescribe me anything at all. The treatment centre isnot an option: a) I'm doing this now, not 6 month's time and b) my wife would kick me out. I'll look up seroquel and see what I find out but if you're only getting 3 hrs...

You're not so much older than me, I'm closing 40 - can I respectfully suggest that your comments about your appearance might a) be wrong and b) probably aren't important. The idea that your sould is rotting away is a much deeper insight.

As an aside, do you or anybody else reading this know if there's like a chatroom for this kind of thing? I'm really sincerely grateful for the time you guys are taking to write to somebody you don't even know and this thread is the busiest I've ever had but the immediacy of a chatroom might be nice,,, I've got so much to say and it's difficult sometimes to do it here.

[bigalspal]

Hi,
I know you probally don't want to hear this, but I feel I must tell you the bitter truth.
At least it's MY bitter truth.
I have WD'd from opiates (including your's) so many times I've lost track.
Insomnia is just the hard cold truth for most of us WD'ing from opiates.
MINE has been BRUTAL!
20 days clean from Fentanyl.
But..I had insomnia with ANY opiate I WD from.
I have had 3 hrs sleep last night. And the night before, ect. I have always been one of those people who cannot fuction without a solid 7 to 8 hrs sleep. NOT 6, 7 or 8 hrs of sleep. So I know what you are going through.
But this endless cycle of relaspe will only cause you to destroy big chunks of your life
like I have. Either you do it now, or you'll end up like me--51 yrs old & doing it all over again. THIS time, because of my age, it's seems like my body has said "you expect me to just heal quickly!?"  It's not. But I haven't given in.
It will almost drive you mad--no sleep!
But if I relaspe, I'd just have to put off the enevitable (My spelling ***** due to the foggy head). How old will I be next time? 65? I'd probally be dead by then. The opiates starting to eat me from the inside out. Really. That's what it felt like this last binge.
I'm a woman, & I am vain. My looks have really suffered. Lost 19 pounds. Not good on me, I'm skinny anyway & short.
I know that sounds really shallow, but I hate what I see in the mirror!
Plus, my soul was finally rotting away.
I know all this sounds harsh, but don't fool yourself into thinking that this addiction won't follow you into old age. It will.
Oh, the Valium doesn't help me either. I never took as much as you, but what normally works for me, now does not.
I'm taking Melatonin. It's sorta working, so I think I'm gonna push through as best I can.
My Dr also precribed Seroquel. It's used off lable at low doses for insomnia, but it's a scary drug if you are not bi-polar. That's what it's really used for. I took it & I slept, but I'm very afraid of using too much, so I will only use it when I'm on the edge of insanity from the insomnia. Plus, don't want ANOTHER damn drug to have to get off of.
Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is-you just have to do it.
There are no free rides, my friend.
Good luck to you!
Bigalspal

[codean]

according to the source of all knowledge wikipedia, benadryl is different in the UK to US:

"In the U.S. Benadryl products contain the 1st generation antihistamine Diphenhydramine.....may also produce anticholinergic effects, antiemetic effects, and SIGNIFICANT SEDATIVE side effects."
"In the United Kingdom Benadryl products contain either the 2nd generation antihistamine acrivastine (sold as Benadryl Allergy Relief) or the antihistamine cetirizine"
Bummer. I know that valium isn't really a sleeper but it's the closest I have. The only OTC thing I know in th UK is something called Nytol - I've just looked and bingo, there's the Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride, Maybe that's what I get tomorrow...

Thanks for the info on the liver function factor.Thankfully, I was totally aware of that and it wasn't the way I got my codeine. It was all pure codeine pills or mmost commonly, codeine linctus. When absolutely necessary, I would use the pills with the other ingredients but was aware how to exract the codeine. Amazing what you learn when a drug becomes so important to you.

[codean]

funnily enough I was just trying to look up an NA phone number, with a view to having a chat but the site seems to be down. Plus I have the issue that I can't tell my wife that I'm going to an NA meeting, I suppose I could say I was going to an AA meeting because I felt the need -  although that would worry her.

To be perfectly honest though, I never really got into the whole AA thing - my way or the highway type thing. I don't want to knock AA (and by association NA) because I know for some people it works. However, what I felt was that people were turning their lives into an AA centred life and I see no freedom that way. Also, there's a very interesting article in the health pages about AA - worth a read. I think there's some great principles in there, but to be honest, I'm not sure it's for me. Maybe I should try again but I'm really not convinced. Thanks for the encouragement - appreciated. I'm pretty hopeful that my little dabble last night has had no particularly bad effects. I've had no more today and it hasn't been hard at all.The only problem with that is that it is giving me a (probably) false sense of security that I can do it again tonight. Resist resist resist! If another 4.5 hours pass and I get to 5 in the morning again, it's going to be tough...

Thanks for taking the time to write

[122 Tactical Fighter Group]

One primary concern would be that most codeine based meds also partner up with acetaminophen/paracetamol. That would be the largest concern with hepatoxicity.  Especially in the UK/Canada/Australia where people try and sustain a codeine habit with 10mg pills that also have a gob of one of the two other analgesics - the codeine may be extracted, but most do not know how to do this. Valium isnt really a sleeping pill either...I dont know whats available in the Uk - but trazadone is an effective sleep aid that works and is safe and non addictive. If you are feeling better today - maybe you should keep lowering your dose as you say........just never quit looking for the answers until you are satisfied that you have found them. And maybe codeine isnt as harmful to the liver as other narcotics....but everything that goes in your system is filtered through your liver and makes it work harder....so even a totally innocuos substance can have some serious effects on liver functions. Glad that you decided to quit the codeine - - just never stop quiting..........and best of luck to you.......

[mtgoat911]

you will start the wd process all over, please do not do it
4 days is awesome!!! its a long time for a codine user!!! are you willing to find an na meeting?

[codean]

thanks so much for your input. I really appreciate it. It's great to know you're not on your own and I think without this place, I would be. Now, if I can address your points:
@theeagle
I can certainly accept that codeine may well be an easier withdrawal. It's been bad but nowhere near as bad as I feared. I'm feeling a bit better today and while it would have been a huge effort, I could probably have almost have functioned normally. Luckily, being sunday, I didn't have to. Plus, I can't help thinkng that maybe I feel better cause I actually got some sleep.I don't understand why the valium isn't working - I have no history of abuse with any benzo. I can only put it down to the no sleep that comes with wd and therefore, almost nothing wil work. I'll check out the sleep remedies you suggest and see what I can find. I suspect there may be a US/UK availabiity/translation issue at work with some ingredients (i haven't heard of any of the 3) but I'm sure I can get to the bottom of that. I've already decided to quit the codeine so have no real issue with your final comments but I have to say lack of sleep may not kill me but it sure feels like it! - more practically, I seriously worry about driving if I haven't slept in days. Also, my understanding is that codeine doesn't doesn't damage the liver - excess amounts simply go unmetabolised hence it was probably pointless taking as much as I did and why it was possible to taper down as quickly as I did. If I've been misinformed about that I'd like to know because if you happen to know that codeine damages the liver, I'd like to know because that may be quite serious for me. Anything you can point me to that shows that would be quickly up on my screen. Finally, thanks for taking the time to give some input. Always appreciated from anybody. Just talking helps.
@ack4,
I'll try again to see if I can track down any melatonin anywhere. My local health food shops had no clue although I was able to get most of the thomas recipe and amino acid protocol ingredients. I've just had a look online and I can find some places I can get it but I'd rather buy it OTC so I don't have to wait for delivery - another 3-4 days sleep is not a welcome thought - how much do you take? are you saying 6x5mg? Given that Valium isn't working what's the odds of melatonin helping?

@both Frankly I'm prepared to try anything. So I'll be off to look at what eagle suggested and maybe buy some melatonin too.

I'll be checking back here regularly though so if you're around, I'd really appreciate ongoing dialogue. a) it helps pass the night b) it removes the loneliness.

Thanks guys

[Ack4]

You can get Melatonin and any grocery store or Vitamin store. I order it from PURITANSPRIDE.COM.
If you order there, they are the cheapest and always have deals like buy 2 get 3 free,
I use it every night and I take alot more then they say to (6) 5mg per night.

I am a chronic pain disabled person so I have trouble sleeping also and have to get off of alot of meds.

[122 Tactical Fighter Group]

Well - 1800mg is a healthy dose. But codeine is also one of the easiest withdraws that exist in narcotic land. Your addiction is just trying to feed itself. And thats also a hefty dose of valium, particularly if it isnt working. You do need to make an order of battle and stick to it. Have you tried benadryl for sleep? Diphenhydramine. It is the OTC equivalent of vistoril that is used for detox. And it does work for sleep a great deal of the time. It is unfortunate but insomnia is a strong component of withdraws. Practically insomnia will not kill you. But that much codeine and a narcotic addiction will kill you. And you are probably not doing your liver any favors either. Think about it. And good luck to you.......

[codean]

ok I blew it - sort of. I couldn't sleep and took about 100mg codeine. Reslt was 6-7 hours sleep. bliss. Good thing is there's been no temptation to take any more today although obviously I'm tempted too take some more tonight to sleep - maybe a bit less this time - 80 mg maybe.Bizarre way of tapering after my initial taper I know, but could this work? Is it really really a bad idea? I  know the obvious answer is yes, but am I fooling myself thinking I can make this work for me? I'm supposed to go to work tomorrow and there's no way I can do that if I don't sleep. The day starts witha 2.5 hr drive for a start followed by a 3 nr meeting and then the drive back. I can't do that with no sleep.

Before I get the answers saying 'don't do it', please think about it. I've gone from 1800mg codeine taken throughout the day to be able to take none all day - including today. I did that for four days and didn't sleep. Last night I took a small fraction of my previous dose - well within prescription dose (with a bunch of valium admittedly) and it's helped enormously. I'm thinking tonigt, no valium, just a small amount of codeine and see what happens, One part of me thinks the only way is complete ct, the other part thinks maybe I can tailor the plan to my requirements within strict guidelines. Or am I just talkinng out of my backside?

[Danny750]

Don't do it. I was 15 days clean and started using again and have yet to stop. It always starts out as just a little at night to sleep and turns into something bigger. Don't take it trust me you will regret it.