School Issues- Kindergarten

[ANS04]

My son is 5 years old. For the last few years we have noticed an array of different behavior problems. They have ranged from inability to focus, hyperactivity, aggression, preference of being around adults instead of children and so on. The first thought was ADHD...but after two years of working hard with him...ADHD does not seem to fit. I have researched anxiety disorders, dyslexia, oppositional defiant disorder, autism and so on. Nothing seems to fit just right.
So here is what we are currently facing...
At home my son has improved tremendously. His hyperactivity has died down and he seems more like a typical 5 year old boy. He generally listens on the first try or at least by the second. If he is tired...it could take five times or more. He is sweet...caring...affectionate...thoughtful...very attentive...overall a fun loving kid. As long as he is around adults...this is the behavior he shows. Most the comments we receive are...what a well behaved lovable boy. He shows little to no aggression...never uses bad words...is clear on what is right from wrong.
At school...he seems to be a completely different child. Since day one we have had issues. What started as a concern with him sitting quietly or participating with other children quickly developed into much more serious concerns. According to his teacher and the staff at the school my son show's aggression (hitting, kicking), he says bad words, treats kids poorly (name calling, destroying their papers), isolates himself, wont participate...it goes on and on.
We have met with the school many times...my son has been sent to the principals office countless times...he has been suspended once. We have a big meeting coming up soon to evaluate him for special ed. The teacher is stating she feels my son will fail Kindergarten because he is not academically up to standards. However, I work with my son twice a day on homework and he is academically "average" in reading/writing and advanced in mathematics and language/communication. He can relate to and understand adult concepts. His memory is outstanding...he remembers things from when he was two that even I forgot. He asks lots of questions and unlike typical children doesnt accept the basic answer...he digs deeper. My son is very aware that he is treated different at school and on the bus...he states this makes him sad. When asked if he likes school...he states he likes/misses his teacher but not the other children. The moment he walks to the school bus...his whole demeanor changes.
What I know to be true is this...my son acts very differently at home vs at school...he has always preferred adults/older children over children his own age...I have witnessed this "poor" behavior the school speaks of when he is around children of his own age or children who are more active/unruly and he does require more focused attention to stay on track and behave (not an independent worker). One last thing...I have noticed that school has greatly influenced his self confidence/worth...he has come home saying he is stupid or ugly and wants a new face. Things he heard at school.
Oh...one more thing...he does know right from wrong...he shows accurate emotions when he has done something wrong...shows remorse...guilt...sadness...
Sorry this was so long...but I am desperate for some answers. For years everyone has "guessed" at what could be the problem...we have tried hundreds of things with him...I want something concrete. I refuse to let my son fail kindergarten...he is smart...gifted I believe...socially/emotionally maybe immature...but too smart to be held back.
Help anyone...ideas....please!

[specialmom]

Have you ever looked into sensory integratrion disorder?  This involves the nervous system and my son suffers from it.  Well, I say suffer . . . but through occupational therapy that really isn't the case.  He was just like your boy at school (preschool) and we had him evaluated by an occupational therapist and began occupational therapy (which is like play therapy which my  kid LOVES).  He is like a different kid all together now.  Things were always worse at school because that is an enviroment in which he had less control (and controlling things is a coping mechanism) as well as the enviroment was stimulating to the nervous system----  his processing slowed and got jumbled.  We do lots of activities at home that have helped beyond belief and I'd be happy to give you some ideas if you think sensory might fit.  Social problems were one of the areas that broke my heart for my son.  He is MUCH better now.  

You are wise and smart to try to find out what is going on.  Self esteem in these years is critical and sets the tone for life.  Being in trouble every day in school will take its toll on his self esteem, for sure.  Finding the root cause of the behavior can head that off.  My son has only had one bad day since starting kindergarten this year which is a miracle based on the  past.  I feel blessed to have found out what the issue was.  Let me know if I can help in anyway!

[ANS04]

Thank you for responding. After reading about sensory integration disorder...I do not feel this fits my son...at all.

Any other ideas?

[specialmom]

Well, there is aspergers and emotional/psychiatric issues . . .  I would suggest going ahead and allowing the school to evaluate him for speech, psychiatric and occupational therapist evals.  A parent can request this.  The information is confidential and meant to help.  If he needs some extra things in place to help in the classroom enviroment-----  this is how you get it.

I wish sensory integration was the problem as we've seen so much improvement with our son.  He is like a different kid now and doing so well.  

Does your son require movement to stay focased?  Some kids do.  Does he sit better after playground time, for example?  


How are his fine motor skills?  Any trouble writing that could frustrate him?  

Is he always young for the group he is in . . . as he is 5.  When is his birthday?  Is he on the young side of his class?  (like as in a summer birthday?)  

[ANS04]

My son has great fine and large motor skills. He is very coordinated.
He is more of a hands on learner. He requires a lot of positive reinforcement and like I mentioned one on one attention to stay focused.
He was five in April...he may be a bit younger...but he looks older...he communicates on a 2nd or 3rd grade level...
He does struggle with reading/writing...it takes a lot of repetition...his writing is O.K. as long as he is being observed closely and reminded to write nicely. We have noticed he writes some things backwards...E and 3...S and 2...6 and 9...6 and 8...S and 5...these are all I can think of now. But shows no other signs of dyslexia.
They are starting an evaluation...like you mentioned...I dont want my son in Special Ed...I fear if I keep him in K they will fail him...that are already stating he will fail. Even though I know he academically is on track with reading/writing...and ahead in mathematics. But the school doesnt see this...they just see his poor behavior.

[ANS04]

It is like he has a mixture of ADD and Anxiety...but both would be mild...

I really wonder if there isnt something else...underlying...that sets him off in a school environment...and with children of the same age. Something small...that we are all missing.

I have asked to observe him at school...the school wont allow it...they say he is to dependent on adults and my being there would only add to this. Who knows my son better then me? No one! If I observe him...I might be able to catch something they dont. They admit they dont have the staff to provide the direct attention he needs. 23 kids with 1 teacher...she cant see it all.

The school counselor has tried implementing strategies in the classroom...none have been successful. BUT I implement similar strategies at home...and he is great...only difference...I can give my son more one on one direct attention.

[RockRose]

Sometimes schools have no other recourse to return the classroom atmosphere back to normal,  than to remove a child who is academically average but extremely disruptive.

How does he do in groups of children away from school?  i.e,  birthday parties,  groups of children at the McDonalds playground, etc?

Have you considered getting into a homeschool network,  where he can be mostly home schooled but also gather in small groups for additional educational/social activities?

[ANS04]

What if a child is academically above average? Bored in the classroom? My son states he is bored constantly. Does that make him special ed? He already feels very different from other kids.

He is fine in small groups of children...accept if their is a child who is overly active, loud, disruptive, aggressive....then suddenly my son has issues.

I would love love love to consider a homeschool network like you describe...accept I have twins due in April...and cant fathom how I could homeschool my son...get to small group gatherings...and care for twins.

[ANS04]

I am just trying to get a firm understanding of the schools position and my son's options.

[specialmom]

My son is in kindergarten as well-----  a portion of his report card is behaviorally oriented.  I think because developement is important in those years . . . to learning.  If his behavior is not condusive to learning, how will he learn, right?  This will only get worse and worse as he gets older and more is expected out of him.  So the evaluation sounds very necessary.

I think I would think about the words the teacher has used.  He is not academically where the other kids are.  The other portions of my child's report card were on the things kindergartners focas on----  letters, numbers, writing, emerging reading, etc.  My son does a little better at home with that stuff because his sensory gets in the way a bit at school.  If he were falling behind though, I would make sure I was addressing it.  Your child is falling behind, it appears.  

He may be struggling more than you know.  For example, you say he has "great" fine motor skills but has a little trouble writing.  That is a contradiciton.  FYI----  my son is super coordinated as well.  He is an awesome athlete and always has been.  He also does pretty well with fine motor.  But fine motor is slightly off.  It makes writing a little harder for him.  He is on target with his class, but has to put much thought into it.  He has sensory and some fine motor issues but they are slight.  Even a slight issue can cause a problem and make it a little more frustrating for a child.  His  hand writing is of no concern to his teacher as it is on target as I said, but it is harder for him than other kids.  My son's gross motor skills have always been noticably good as well . . . except that sometimes things are a little hard for him.  My son is a very strong swimmer (you should see this kids muscles).  He swims all year long and has a new instuctor that is a stickler for correct stroke.  He can do freestyle pretty well, but doesn't have the perfect stroke.  He really fought her at changing it.  I realize this is because it is harder for him to coordinate it.  His motor planning is ever so slightly off.  My son is only 4 months older than your son.  My point being that even a slight issue can make things harder and more frustrating.  

As he is a good communicator-----  what does he say is happening.  Why is having focasing issues, aggressive issues, etc.  What are his words for this?  And I was also wondering if you have ever volunteered in class to see for yourself what is going on.  I would definatly do this.

A teacher can not insert her opinions torwards your son as testing even in kindergarten has some standards to it----- I believe that is law.  I'm sure they compare his work to his classmates . . . right?  And no child left behind means that each school compares standards of an individual school to what happens in the state and the US.  So I'm confused as to why you think behavior is the only reason he is having trouble.  It sounds more involved than that and I think legally it has to be.  I don't know for sure, of course.  

I am NOT being unsympathetic in any way.  It is heart breaking when our child is suffering.  It sounds like a complicated situation, for sure.  And there are bad teachers out there that might let their bias enter into the picture . . . hope that is not the case and everyone wants to get to the bottom of this to help your son.

In our state, we have inclusion.  Meaning that unless it is a severe situation, kids stay in mainstream classroom.  An IEP must be in place and that will be important for your son.  The evaluation helps determine the IEP.  Maybe an aide will be suggested that helps your son more one on one.  Aides are confidential as well.  They are in a classroom without designating which child they are there for.  Sometimes it is obvious if a physical issue is present, but otherwise, no one knows for sure and the aide works with everyone with a special eye on their subject.  I don't know.  My son doesn't require an aide but does work better one on one (as really most kids do)----  so I don't know what the standards of assigning these would be.  Certainly if he can't attend to class without great disruption to everyone in the room and himself, then an aide would probalby help!  
I can tell you are searching for answers and I obviously don't have any.  I wish you the best as you sort this out.  Good luck.

[specialmom]

Please don't take offense to this question . . .Why do you feel your son is above average academically?  I'm just wondering. Remember----  what they do at home is different than school----  and at school is compared to his peers and where they are at academically.

I would NOT be happy if a school said I couldn't observe.  I think I would talk to the counselor.  I'm not suggesting that you sit and help him through but that you watch and see what is happening.

[ANS04]

Thank you again for your thoughts.

I guess I have not paid close enough attention to if he has slight problems with motor skills (fine or gross). The only one I can think of is the writing. It takes extreme focus for him to be able to write accurately.

I have asked for them to put an aide in the classroom...I am confident this would help. I was allowed to volunteer once in the classroom...and made an effort to help all the children...not just my son...but my presence there...and my ability to keep him directed...worked...his teacher commented on how well behaved he was. Now they wont allow me to volunteer...like I mentioned before...stating my son is to dependent on adults. The school states they do not have the staff for an aide...ummm...I thought the state was required to provide one if that is what is required for my son to be successful?

I  just went and re-read a recent letter his teacher sent... her exact words...my son knows the material but will not do it or say he doesnt know it...to seek attention from an adult...then once he receives the attention... he needs no direction to complete the work. He is a smart boy...

The reality is my son is wrong for his behavior...hands down...but we dont see that behavior at home...only at school or with children who are unruly/loud/aggressive themselves.

[ANS04]

My son has tested above grade level in Mathematics...his school knows this...THEY tested him...they also agree that his verbal communication in very advanced. In every meeting they state...Anthony is very bright...BUT...

When I have asked my son about school...this is what he tells me...I am summarizing...

He is bored...he doesnt like doing a lot of work at one time...other kids are loud...he is blamed for stuff he doesnt do...kids make fun of him...he feels if he is nice or mean, they treat him the same way (like he is different)...he gets called stupid/told he should be in Special Ed...he admits that sometimes he is following the lead of others (they yell, he yells)...and sometimes he has no clue why he acted badly, he tells me he cant figure it out, it just happened...and so on...you get the point.

[ANS04]

By the way I have talked with the counselor...asst principal....principal...his teacher...and a lady that works with special ed kids...I am very involved...I just feel like it isnt getting us anywhere...no answers...problem is only worse.

[specialmom]

Yikes, so hard.  I have a friend here that has worked in schools for many years, I will ask him to take a look at this.  He's very attune to these kinds of things and might have further suggestions.  

Did he do preschool by the way and what were the results there?

[RockRose]

I think you probably  have to have a diagnosis to qualify for an aide.  I know here in our school district,  if a child has a diagnosis that is appropriate for an aide - for example,  profound hearing loss,  dyslexia,  etc.,  an aide can be considered.

WIthout a diagnosis all they have here is a child that appears to be of average intelligence but is disruptive.  

Do you have a parent advocate in your school or school district?  I sense here that they are getting their ducks in a row to legally remove him from the mainstream classroom.  There are steps that have to be taken - a certain number of incidents reported,  attempts to correct those behaviors through parent conferences,  principal interaction,  suspensions,  etc.   And when on paper they can show they've done all they could,  they remove him.  

The fact that they are dismissing your involvement although it was successful - I strongly sense they are biding time before they have gotten all their t's crossed and can remove him.  

I think you need a parent advocate,  and I also strongly think he needs to be evaluated and put into appropriate behavioral or cognitive therapy.  

Nothing hurts as bad as when your child is struggling.  I wish you well with all your efforts.

[ANS04]

My son was in preschool...he did fine there...a bit of inability to focus. He was also in a Montessori School and did well there...no issues at all. He did Pre-K last year and had a never ending list of problems. Some the same as he is currently having and some different.

[RockRose]

Can you put him back in a Montessori school?

[ANS04]

We cant afford it...wish we could...but it is unknown if we would run into the same issues...he was at Montessori about 2 1/2 years ago.

[ANS04]

By the way I completely agree the school is trying to get their ducks in a row to remove him from his classroom or from the school. I just dont understand why they wont let me volunteer a few times a week...again...not to directly help my son...but to offer a presence.

[specialmom]

I volunteer in my son's classroom.  But here is the situation . . . my son is functioning really really well now.  We didn't know how he would do with his sensory issues when the school year began.  Therefore, I am the mom that is on the list pretty infrequently vs. the other mom's.  They won't let a parent interfere with classroom things . . . and I guess that I get one part of what they are saying.  If your son's functioning changes because you are there, they won't allow it (even if it is better . . . because kids can't take their mom's to school indefinately . . .).  But to observe a couple of times to see what you think is triggering the aggressive and disruptive outbursts would help.  

What is your school's policy on inclusion?  I'd research that.  Our public system has parent advocates as well.  This may be very valuable for you in understanding the process.  As in our state, inclusion is the norm unless a child can not be managed.  But they have to go through a whole process of an iep before they know that.  Is your son half day or whole day kindergarten, by the way?

[ANS04]

There is no half day Kindergarten where we live. So he goes full day.

Policy on inclusion? They are beginning the process of an IEP as of Monday.

I understand that I cant hold my son's hand through 12th grade BUT I do think my observation of him could provide answers to his poor behavior...I can read my son...figure out the triggers.

I am starting to feel like I just have no control over the situation...so much is left in the school's hands.

I wish my son could have an improvement like your son...that would be a miracle.

Our son's sound similar...in terms of their energy level...joy of sports...fun loving nature...etc...

[specialmom]

Yes, sadly it does feel like the school kind of owns them once they enter kindergarten . . . but remember that you are always his parent and the one who loves and cares for him the most.  

I do know how difficult it is when your child suffers and struggles.  I've had many a good cry over the same myself.  I found it hard to believe that MY beautiful and intelligent boy had such difficulty.  He brings me so much joy and I love him so much-----  I really wanted the world to see him that same way.  It hurts a mother's heart when you feel like that isn't the case.  So, I want you to know that I DO understand how you feel.  

We were so very blessed to have found the right diagnosis that has resulted in my son doing so much better.  I know he will have challenging days ahead----  and try to stay prepared for this.  But also feel like it is a true miracle that he's come as far as he has.  

One thing that helped my son-----  and may help yours regardless of what the root issue is-----  is motivation.  My son at 4 knew he was different.  He wants friends and he wants to fit in and he wants to do well.  He is very determined about these things and verbalizes it pretty well for a just a couple days past 6 year old.  So we have worked on it and strategized torwards it.  He is very willing to do things because he has this inner desire.  I'm wondering if you've ever talked to your son in this way to see what he would be motivated to do.  For example, my son has personal space issues.  I never came out and said that bugs people . . . but we talked about giving people room.  We used robot arms (stick arms out and get no closer) for our cue about this.   He wanted to be a "good friend" -----  so he worked very hard to back up and give space.  He's the kid that pushes into you naturally----  so this was a challenge.  But HE was motivated to be a "good friend".  So he over came it.  

Our occupational therapist has told me that an extremely smart child with any delay or issue is at great advantage because they can figure out the best ways to cope and handle a situation as well as remember steps to get through something tough.  Your son is smart-----  so he will fair better than if  he were otherwise.  

And yes, our boys do seem to have things in common.  I'm a big believer in finding the posatives in a kid and making a BIG deal about them.  Sports help my son stay calm and he excels in them-----  so we pursue them.  And I think that ONE best friend does wonders for a kid's self esteem.  May both our boys adjust to the world they are in . . . and be happy!!

[Sandman2]

Hi ANSO4,
  Specialmom asked me to take a look at this.  I am usually over on the ADHD forum, and didn't really notice this thread.  I've read the whole thread through several times - WOW, do I understand where you are coming from.  There is nothing worse than not knowing what you are dealing with!
  So - some thoughts.
The school really should have let you observe your child.  You need to know how he acts.  Trouble is - you need to be the "invisible observer", which is very hard to do.  For that to happen, you have to show up almost daily - do absolutely nothing- until your child no longer notices you.  The trouble with working as an aide is that you are constantly moving around and reminding your child that you are there.  It is possible to observe him at recess without him knowing you are around and that would provide you with some important info.  How a child reacts on the playground with this peers is very helpful.  I would hope that if the school really worked on it they could find a way to let you in the room to watch.  But it really is tricky.  I don't think the aide routine would work, unless maybe it was doing clerical stuff where you were in and out.  Anyway,  out side of looking at recess or lunch - no easy answer.  That is really too bad, because I really think you need to see how he is acting.
  Why is he acting the way he is in school compared to home?  OK,  I don't normally do this because I want to see the child in action.  However, you have included a tremendous amount of information.  So best guess is a form of Autism coupled with   ADD/ADHD.  I have worked with kids that had similar behaviors.  The ADD/ADHD will cause him to do things that he doesn't remember doing.  The Autism will make any overt behavior by other people very scary/painful to him.  This is simplifying things quite a bit, but it is where I would start.  
  So what do you do?  The IEP is very important. The fact that the school is calling for one half way through a child's kindergarten year is unusual.  In fact, very unusual.  They definitely see something that needs the resources that can be brought together by the IEP.   He needs the protection that it can bring.  Definitely bring up Autism.  I may be wrong, but it needs to be seriously looked at.  The people that you have worked with so far are not psychologists, they may never have dealt with some with the conditions your son has.  The testing should help this.  (thinking positive here).  In the IEP, testing should have already been done.  You want to ask the psyc if he/she has experience with Autism.  Your sons mental ability is not an issue.  His ability to function in a public setting is.    If they are looking at ADHD you and the teacher should have gotten a questionaire dealing with him.  Since you have not mentioned this, I am assuming this has not happened.  Not good.  However, not unusual since kids normally don't get diagnosed until first grade.  But, it would be nice to know because it makes huge differences in how you deal with his education and behavior.    
  And that is the crux of it all.  Autism can be very successfully treated if caught early.  The same goes with ADD/ADHD.  Its finding out what is going on that is the problem.
That process has certainly started.  I think you may want to ask a few more questions of the discovery process. You also might shoot off a quick note here to find out more information about the IEP . - http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Parent-IEP-Special-Education-Community/show/624
   Definitely google IEP, Autism, ADHD for more info.
In regard to holding him back, its way to early to tell.  However,  his grade in school is not that big of a deal.  At his age, he won't really notice for long.  If they really feel that's what is needed go with it.  Schools don't like to hold back kids.  What is important is that he feels comfortable.  
  I hope this helps. I have skipped over a lot that all of you have said (believe me I have read it many times) in trying to narrow things down a bit.  I will continue to monitor this thread.  Please write if you have any questions.  Keep us informed.

[ANS04]

Thank you thank you thank you. ALL OF YOU! This was my first time reaching out and actually discussing my son with others. I normally just research.

Two years ago...my son displayed "classic" ADHD...I took him to a behavioral doctor...parents, teachers, instructors and friends filled out questionaires. At that point my son was about 3 1/2 and the doctor did feel he had ADHD. Long story short...we researched the crap out of ADHD...implemented ideas/strategies...and with a lot of time (and maturity)...most those "classic" behaviors resolved. I took my son back to the same doctor in August (right before K)...she reevaluated him...and no longer felt the diagnosis was ADHD. She was unsure of what the problem was...told me to get him through a portion of the school year and then everyone can fill out questionaires and reevaluate again. I have chosen not to go back to this behavioral doctor though...because she is quick to issue meds...I am hoping we can avoid meds.

I understand about the aide situation not working because I need to be "invisible"...I will speak with the school to see if I can observe him at recess without him seeing me. Ironically...his first friend at school happened to be an 8 year old boy from a Special Ed class. This is who he is around most of the time during lunch/recess.

I have read about Autism before...it didnt seem to fit him...I know there are a lot of form of Autism...is there one that catches your attention regarding my son? Or could you explain what makes you think my son has Autism. Also, what makes you think ADHD? He is not overly hyperactive...he is active...and used to be "driven by a motor" when he was young...but much more controlled now. Maybe if you can explain what you see...I can understand and read about it...and relay my information to the school or the psychologist who will evaluate him.

By the way I believe the school is calling for an IEP because of the severity of some of the behaviors my son has displayed. Three times since the start of school he has had to be physically restrained by staff. All three incidents seemed to have started from the beginning of the day. Something happened on the bus...or at line up...and then his day just progressively got worse and worse...then it would result in a horrible outburst...such as...flipping out in music (running around, lifting up instruments, acting like it was all a game, calling names)...took a plastic knife from the cafeteria (was showing it to others, one blamed him for saying he would hurt them, teacher reacted, my son felt attacked, he kicked the teacher)...and the last one was he kicked another student (then when confronted, ran from the teacher, through a fit). When asked about all three incidents...he really had no answer to why things got so bad...but once he calmed down and we talked with him at home...we would get little hints to why...such as like I mentioned...being teased on the bus...falsely accused of bad intentions...ect.

These behaviors blow my mind...because I have never ever ever seen him that bad...ever....even years ago at his worst.

I will say he is definitely a child who can not keep his hands to himself...he tends to be very touchy feely...doesnt understand others space...but not in a violent way.

Also, the school has tried implementing ideas in the classroom...example...he works for 10 mins...he gets 5 mins of doing something he enjoys...then he has a chart that is based on half hour intervals...if he behaves during that half hour...he earns a smiley face...at the end of the day he can earn a special surprise...like getting to drink some sprite (he loves sprite, we dont drink soda at home)...then if he has a certain amount of good days...he gets to have a star on the principals wall...and after a certain amount of stars the principal has a surprise for him...like a small toy. They also tried putting him around other calm focused children...that didnt work...they gave him his own desk...didnt work...at this point they have him in his own desk with his own spot on the carpet separate from the other kids. This concerns them..he is isolated from the other kids. At this point...I think they feel the ideas they have tried...are failing.

Lastly, like I have mentioned...he refuses to do work independently and states he doesnt know the work...but once an adult gives him one on one attention...he knows the work with no problems.

Sorry I have gone on and on...