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Can I drink a beer?
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Can I drink a beer?

I just finished a 24 week treatment for Hep c,- interferon, ribiviron, amantadine, folic acid.  I have type 2 and the virus has been cleared and I feel great! -as of now.  Normal liver function, etc.  For the last year I have stayed away from drinking anything.  So is it ok to have a beer?  My doctor has really hedged when I ask him.  Any thoughts?
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105 Comments Post a Comment
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Avatar_m_tn
Are you 21 years old?
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148588_tn?1401923955
You do understand:

That being undetected at end of treatment doesn't equal "cleared"? You still need to be undetected 6 months post-tx to have  a sustained response.

That even with a Sustained Virological Response there's no guarantee against HCC or cirrhosis - just a much lower incidence.

That if you ever need a liver transplant, there's a good chance you'd be standing in line in front of someone who had done everything possible to take care of themself - including not drinking.

With all that said and understood - knock yourself out. It's your liver.
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276730_tn?1327966546
I think the doctor already answered your question from what you said.

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Avatar_f_tn
Maybe I'm crazy, but I had a glass of wine a week after finishing tx (I was UND at that time).  A week after that I went to a wine tasting, had maybe a glass and a half, with a meal. Have had maybe 5 drinks since then, at well spaced intervals.  I don't like to ever get drunk and have no problem with booze.  Four months post, I remain UND.

I'd say it would be okay to have a beer, I mean A beer.  Not two beers, and only on special occasions.  If you have a problem stopping at one, don't do it.  That's my take on it, for whatever it's worth.
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Avatar_f_tn
That if you ever need a liver transplant, there's a good chance you'd be standing in line in front of someone who had done everything possible to take care of themself - including not drinking.
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Good point.

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86075_tn?1238118691
around here, without another alcohol thread????, oy vey!!!! lol....I wish once, someone would come on here and ask, hey, "is it okay if I could have a nice shot of heroin, maybe a speedball with a little coke kicker???  this last round of treatment has really got me down with the blues! (sorry for the sick humor...)

(disclaimer: not comparing this scenario w/ one beer...I myself would wait till I was sure I was SVR...then one beer (or glass of wine) very occasionally, depending on my liver damage to begin with...only my take, and after this, I'll pull my toe outta here...been in one too many of these discussions!)
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Avatar_f_tn
You can only have non-alcoholic beer, zero % if you care about your liver and life.
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229003_tn?1193705524
Is it okay if I go into the evidence room at my husbands employer and sample the "goods" and after that can I please have one of the few "scary looking dudes" that frequent the crowbar hotel give me a tattoo across me arse that says "fool in making"  and even after that how bout if I try to remove all my used Interfeon needles from the hard plastic sharps container to wash them for future use....Geez and now you tell me I can't even have a beer - But one of your "oldtimers" on here keeps saying it is okay...

I'm with you dollface - this gets old real fast....
Huggers Beth
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Avatar_m_tn
Sorry for my first entry, it's my last day of tx and I couldn't resist taking a shot at you.  But seriously, you now have a taste of just how the crew around here feels about the subject!  

desrt-is right on, I've had a transplant and wouldn't want to sit out the mandatory 1yr before I could get listed if necessary.  

4C and others-I agree, wait a year to confirm SVR and then only after accessing your liver stage.

GrandmaA-there is no 0% beer to my knowledge, believe me I search the 4 corners! O'Douls, Sharps etc all have .5%.

jphits-salud to your SVR!
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229003_tn?1193705524
your last day of tx woooo hoooooooo congrats! may SVR be yours *dip*
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86075_tn?1238118691
hi, i want to apologize too, I'm just a sorry smart a$$! and sometimes if youre new posting, it's easy to take things the wrong way here, but I mean well!

guess you got some answers to your question, and of course, it'll be you and your doctor that will ultimately decide what you want to do about these issues...

Veg: nice to see you here!
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151263_tn?1243377877
Congrats on your SVR and congrats on feeling better. Not to get off topic, but if you don't mind my asking can you provide your stats and lifestyle and describe how you felt both prior to treatment, during treatment and after? The reason I ask is because I've always wondered how many people who treat and go on to SVR really feel better after successfully treating. Like did it resolve any symptoms they had while they were still infected? Or do they feel about the same as they did prior to treating? Or do they actually feel worse after treatment? (long term) We don't hear from many SVR's who take the time to express their feelings on this matter if they're feeling good (or great) after treatment. I recently wrapped up 41 weeks of treatment and now 3 months after stopping feel faaaaaabulous (with a few arthritic pangs). I just pray this 'freebie runner's high' I've been experiencing will continue. I praying this is the real deal, this is how people feel once they're cured...so your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

As to drinking, I'm not the best person to ask! I've been a microbrew lush for the past 2 months or so. Imbibing too much for my own good. But the way I see it, I started treatment with an F1 liver (i.e. minimal fibrosis) and now apparently have my SVR. If all I managed to do to my liver after having HCV for 24 years concurrently with a fair amount of alcohol consumption, then I think I can get away with throwing back 2-4 pints of the good stuff on weekend days (and maybe a tad more on just a *few* "funnerer" days ;-)  And then maybe a pint or two a day during 3-4 weekdays. But that's just for now, eventually I'll tighten my belt and get back to exercising and a more moderate consumption.

As far as you are concerned, obviously that's up to you. But in my opinion, if you're in good health, have minimal (or no) fibrosis (assuming you got a biopsy, which not all type 2's do), have no alcohol dependency problem (or likelihood to develop one), and are a responsible adult, then heck I wouldn't hold back on a few glasses of wine or beer here and there. On the other hand if you do (or did) have significant fibrosis (F2 or worse), or any of the risk factors mentioned above, then I'd cool it and just learn to live without it. My $0.02 anyway, best of luck.
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Avatar_m_tn
Hey, I liked your pirate reply "fool in the making!"  Being post-TP I stay away from the drug and alcohol debates.  All I know is I didn't control those habits once, so I won't test myself again.  I see from your profile your 75% of the way thru tx, may SVR be yours and thanks for your wish to me.  
mike
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86075_tn?1238118691
you know, I'm kind of a chronicler of sorts, and I pay attention to many posts here and elsewhere over the years, and although there does seem to be many who don't feel better after SVR, there are many who feel better after treatment who didn't even SVR, and many who feel way better after SVR...just from what I've seen and heard...it would be hard to get hard and fast stats on this, so I just look at things anecdotally and from all the people I know from hep c groups, etc...

course, none of my business, but I hope you tighten your belt sooner then later, that seems to be a tad a lot ( if that makes any sense) to imbibe so soon after treatment, and generally speaking..only say this cause I like you and I'm an inveterate busybody...cause ironically, from all I've read and my doc said this as well...even though the treatment is responsible for clearing the virus, therefore clearing a nasty virus out of your bloodstream, the treatment itself is very hard on your system, and your liver and kidneys, among other things...and one should take care to heal the body after all of that...and not stress it further...(I know, I'm obnoxious)

docs say a drink or even two for men (spaced out) per day is okay, but more then that is pushing it, and this is for the general population, not even considering people who've just undergone chemical therapy as I said...for women less because women can't metabolize it as well as most men...you might get psset at me for saying all this, and that's fair, cause it's none of my business, but I guess I'd just like to address this generally as well, just my take..
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151263_tn?1243377877
I don't mind your "mothering" comments, in fact I appreciate your concern. And I figured someone would bust me for my comments about how much I've been drinking lately. I know the amount I specified is a bit excessive, I just wanted to be honest. But don't worry, I'm fairly health nuttish. Not a health nazi, but definitely health conscious. Sooner or later I'll come back to earth and get on my mountain bike again and start ordering grilled ahi salads instead of prime rib and au jus. And yes water or iced tea instead of an "Arrogant *******" microbrew. But gosh darned I just can't help myself lately. I guess I sound like I'm whining here, but I went through a tough treatment. Tough for me anyway, and now that's it over...now that I'm feeling SOOOOOOOOOOO much better....now that it's really looking like I nailed my SVR...it's just pArTaY time for 'ole mremeet!!!!!!! I'm really digging this vibe I'm on, I just hope I don't crash and burn back to the way I used to feel when I was chronically infected. But right now, the surf is *definitely* up mon!!

Anyway, you're a real sweetie foresee for saying what you did, thanks for that. And I like your pic too by the way, you sure are a pretty gal. I'd say you and pam (pln) are some of the purdiest girls here. Well, amongst the purdiest, I'm sure there are plenty of lookers here that hold their cards a bit closer to their vests...and not to leave anyone out!! (so don't hit me if I didn't mention your name!)
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151263_tn?1243377877
That's "Arrogant B@stard" microbrew. Darned filters...

http://bp2.blogger.com/_l3hE1L9RPR4/Rs1pMNjTnhI/AAAAAAAABOw/
uAMrnT6d2WY/s1600-h/n580351805_238428_6833.jpg
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86075_tn?1238118691
so nice to hear this, as I sit here in my bathrobe, with my glasses on, my hair pulled up in a untidy librarian bun, no make-up...a big zit on my chin...if you saw me right now you'd do a lot of coughing while you were walking backwards, real fast, lol....remember, I'm from Hollywood and we know how to "clean up real good" with the hair and make-up, but thanks for the compliment, there ARE a lot of lookers on this board! certainly well groomed people who are not the creepy stereotype we've been hung with....

you know, I took PDS (Charlotte's) death kinda hard, considering I didn't know her that well...really made me think, how we take life for granted, and think death is some foreign concept we don't need to think about....but it can happen to anybody....hep c or not...we should really take care of ourselves as well as possible and do things that matter while we're here, sorry about waxing so philosophical ...such a nice eulogy 'of sorts' you wrote for her...really touching...
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212705_tn?1221624250
I you have not in the past had troubles due to alcohol and are truly a social drinker...then on special occasions, like reaching SVR..You may be able to enjoy one.
For me...alcohol is not an option, I've already filled my quota card for this lifetime. I do actually enjoy life more without it. That chapter in my book is closed and the future looks brighter without it.

I was in clinical trials 11 years ago. 0 Liver Damage, Nomal ALT , AFT, when I got to UND....i didn't do any 3 mo. checkup (I was pretty ignorant) or anything...I just ran outta there and never looked back, A few years later I started drinking wine again, often to excess. Bottom Line: in less than 5 years of this, I now have Stage 2, Bridging Fibrosis Grade 2-3
Alcohol can do some swift deadly damage...believe me.
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151263_tn?1243377877
Foresee - Yep, losing Charlotte was a real shock. Especially so sudden like that, and especially after just coming out of such a tough treatment for her. When I met Charlotte in the blood draw waiting room (as described in my previous post), I was speaking to two HIV patients who were also taking experimental protease inhibitors similar to VX950. One of them was a Brazilian woman, and I'll never forget what she told both me and Charlotte as we sat there huddled together. She told us that she felt great and was living life to its fullest. She looked perfectly healthy, as did the other nice gay guy we were speaking with. Having HIV, both Charlotte and I were silently glad we weren't in their unfortunate shoes (us just having "mere" cases of HCV). We politely smiled and congratulated her on her good health and positive attitude. I think the Brazilian woman intuitively sensed our pity, and told us that she didn't think of herself as living under a death sentence at all. She said there were perfectly healthy people walking around today that do not have HIV; and yet some of them will die long before her because of some other cause. Or that she herself might be struck down by something completely unrelated to HIV. I thought that was a bit rationalized and defensive of her to say that, but then again I knew it was also true. How true, and ultimately prophetic that statement would turn out to be, I don't think either me or Charlotte really fully appreciated at the time. Well I fully appreciate it now, and if anyone else is reading this, you'd be wise to do the same.

PS>> I'm in central south CA right now for a little work jaunt, any good places to hang on weekends?
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86075_tn?1238118691
ladywhy: the great thing about these boards, is that your honesty might hit somebody that really needs it, you could even be saving a life (who knows?) with your one little post.....it prob doesn't even occur to people that you could still do damage to the ole liver even after your SVR - if you don't take care of yourself...we're prob all so worried just about the virus...thanks for that...

Mremeet: youre a kind of profound guy huh? thanks for the story...You know, I know beans about central CA, except the coastline, and if youre around there, I'd see the Hearst Castle (really nice coastline thereabouts, all down the coast of CA) depends on how long you stay of course...there's a really nice little village there, Cambria...and then there is a beach where all these walruses go (have no idea how to spell the plural on that) really beautiful rolling hills, coast highway, etc...I think there are a few people here from Central Ca....could tell you more...
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86075_tn?1238118691
I'm wishing you the best too! a good friend of mine is on his 13th year with his liver transplant, he's a special effects guy for the movies, works really hard, and has a blast, so to speak! lol...
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Avatar_n_tn
I have to say that before my treatment I felt fine.  I am 26 and have had the virus since birth, but no symptoms/ liver damage.  Infact I only found out about a year ago when I donated blood.   The treatment went well, and I now finally feel "normal" again.  

It would be nice to drink again but I did not realize it was such a big deal.  The idea of not drinking for the rest of my life is a little hard to swallow but I obliviously want to maintain my liver health.

"That if you ever need a liver transplant, there's a good chance you'd be standing in line in front of someone who had done everything possible to take care of themself - including not drinking. "

Anyone that goes though interferon treatment is trying to do everything possible to take care of themself.  
  
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86075_tn?1238118691
this is probably hard to take from me, cause I haven't even started, but I kinda know what you are saying, but there are qualifications...if you've been around the boards and have read as many personal hep c stories as I have...

I have always thought it ironic that someone who has gone though the hell of treatment, would turn around and take their liver for granted after all of that, but it does happen...there are all types of problems people experience on God's green earth....

So i don't quite buy that everyone who has done treatment has done everything they can to take care of themselves, there are exceptions, there is one's life before and after treatment that has to be factored in...I have read of many who have gone to extreme partying after SVR (and much worse yet, without SVR) and kinda screwed themselves up in the process...ie, Ladywhy's post, we're lucky to have a poster who is so honest and forthcoming...and willing to help others with her story...

But I stand by what I originally said before I went into so many directions lol..., after all I've seen and heard from the experts and others, wait till after youre sure youre SVR, and then drink very, very moderately depending on the liver damage you had to begin with (if you had a lot of damage, better not tempt fate, and take care of your liver instead)...

If one has alcohol problems and has trouble drinking very moderately, then learn to live without it...I concur with some others here who think that's it's really no big deal to give up alcohol in your life, pleasure and joy doesn't hinge on it.... you get used to anything, and I have a lot of fun without it....though I found it annoying to give it up many years ago now, it wasn't gut wrenching...and now I don't even miss it at all...just my take...
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179856_tn?1333550962
You made me crack up cause honestly I am as sick as you and have always felt the same way

", hey, "is it okay if I could have a nice shot of heroin, maybe a speedball with a little coke kicker???"



Probably if we are SVR we can...after all as long as it's good grade it shouldn't really hurt the ole liver that much right?   :)
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Avatar_f_tn
Probably if we are SVR we can...after all as long as it's good grade it shouldn't really hurt the ole liver that much right?   :)
_________________________________
You joke, but you know as well as I do that there are three issues: Contaminants, stress on the liver from a substance, and sharing a rig with someone with a blood-borne pathogen.
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132578_tn?1189759437
If you want a beer ,have a beer. next time dont ask .
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250084_tn?1303311035
LOL. And the bottom line issss...... :)

Well put. Your like my easy going, funny son, say's little but when he does, it's direct and a good point!
                                                        LL
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250084_tn?1303311035
P.S. now be honest here, jphits.... how many beers have you had while reading all these answers?
(yes, NO, absolutly NO, ahh go ahead, well- maybe a couple, never, just one....) H*LL, I'd have had to grab one just figuring out which advice to go with! :}
And of course we'd like the 'ahh go ahead' answers the best :}

  All kidding here folks. This was all funny to see all the mixed emotions and love the :
", hey, "is it okay if I could have a nice shot of heroin, maybe a speedball with a little coke kicker???"  Your too funny forseegood :}

                                                      LL
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Avatar_m_tn
Alcohol and Cardiovascular Health
Posted 09/10/2007
James H. O'Keefe MD, FACC; Kevin A. Bybee MD; Carl J. Lavie MD, FACC

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/562474

An extensive body of data shows concordant J-shaped associations between alcohol intake and a variety of adverse health outcomes, including coronary heart disease, diabetes, hypertension, congestive heart failure, stroke, dementia, Raynaud's phenomenon, and all-cause mortality. Light to moderate alcohol consumption (up to 1 drink daily for women and 1 or 2 drinks daily for men) is associated with cardioprotective benefits, whereas increasingly excessive consumption results in proportional worsening of outcomes. Alcohol consumption confers cardiovascular protection predominately through improvements in insulin sensitivity and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol. The ethanol itself, rather than specific components of various alcoholic beverages, appears to be the major factor in conferring health benefits. Low-dose daily alcohol is associated with better health than less frequent consumption. Binge drinking, even among otherwise light drinkers, increases cardiovascular events and mortality. Alcohol should not be universally prescribed for health enhancement to nondrinking individuals owing to the lack of randomized outcome data and the potential for problem drinking.....
The possible CV benefits appear to be the most important health effects of light to moderate drinking, with most studies showing CHD risk reductions of approximately 30% to 35%.[3,4] In the INTER-HEART study,[5] involving 27,000 patients from 52 countries, regular alcohol consumption was associated with a reduced incidence of myocardial infarction (MI) in both genders, and in all adult age groups. Light to moderate drinking is associated with improved CV health in higher-risk individuals, such as those with known CHD and/or diabetes, but it also may reduce CV risk even in lower-risk individuals. A subgroup study taken from the total cohort of 51,000 men in the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study focused on the effects of alcohol in the 8,867 men (mean age 57 years) who followed all 4 of the major healthy lifestyle behaviors (abstention from smoking, maintaining a body mass index <25 kg/m2, exercising at least 30 min daily, and eating a healthy diet). That study found that even in men who were already following a very healthy lifestyle, the consumption of 1 or 2 drinks per day was associated with a 40% to 50% decreased risk of MI (Fig. 2).[6] Patients with hypertension also appear to benefit from moderate alcohol consumption. In a recent 16-year longitudinal study of 11,711 hypertensive men, 1 drink per day reduced the risk of acute MI by approximately 30%.[7] In contrast, alcohol increases blood pressure in a dose-dependent fashion at intakes above 2 drinks daily, and excessive ethanol intake is one of the most common reversible causes of hypertension.[8] Acute ethanol exposure causes a negative inotropic effect on the myocardium, and heavy alcohol use has been associated with both declining ejection fraction and progressive left ventricular hypertrophy.[9,10] Yet, light to moderate drinking has been associated with a substantially reduced risk of congestive heart failure, especially for those with CHD.[11] Light to moderate alcohol intake is also associated with lower risks of both ischemic stroke (Fig. 3)[12,13] and dementia.[14] Consistent J-shaped curves demonstrate increased risks for stroke, especially hemorrhagic stroke,[15] and dementia at heavier levels of alcohol consumption.[12-15]
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Avatar_f_tn
That's an interesting study, but it is about the cardioprotective effects of a small amount of alcohol, and says nothing about alcohol's effects on even a healthy, uncompromised livber.
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86075_tn?1238118691
nice to see you here.

Saw a big thing on this study (or a study very similar) on one of those big news programs on tv.

They found that the study was a little compromised, because when they followed up on many of the "total abstainers" they found out that the reason they  were "total abstainers" was for a specific reason, usually a health related problem, so this kind of skewed the overall results  somewhat.....and that some of the "total abstainers" who didn't have any kind of health problem, had just as long as lifespans, if not more so, then the moderate drinkers...

It's particularly hard to conduct a completely foolproof study, as we have all learned....also, the resveratrol (the grape element) is also what's so good about red wine, and luckily, you can get that in supplement form if one would like (though it hasn't been heavily tested)>

...The only other thing that I have to take issue with, is that this isn't particularly considering "our" segment of society, which is people w/ compromised livers (or those of us that are above 0 or even 1 stage) and that's a fairly big issue, "would that we could"....

Hopefully, some of us who SVR would go down one or two stages stages (but it's not a given that every  SVR *will* go down in stage, and that process takes years (how many years is largely unknown, and varies from individual to individual).  

So there's the hepatitis issue, or damaged liver issue...but like I said before, I think it's probably alright to drink very moderately after SVR, (though less for women)  though I respect those who think even that is pushing it...

I'm really not a Carrie Nation temperance advocate, (like I've been called from time to time, lol)  I even think if youre healthy, and never had a liver issue, it's probably even okay to get a little drunk very, very occasionally, as long as on all other fronts you eat well and take care of yourself, etc etc....problem is, where not like other people, or most of us aren't.

And like what was said before, some of us gave up our "getting drunk" privileges -we pushed it way to hard back in the day, and now we would just like to be able to maintain moderately good health for the rest of our lives.
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Avatar_m_tn
Not surprisngly, given your predisposition in these discussions, you've making some statements that could be interpreted by some as sweeping generalizations discrediting quite a number of studies suggesting cardio benefit from moderate alcohol consumption.

But as long as we're making these types of generalizations, it's been known for some time that people tend to lie on surveys of alcohol consumption, specifically underestimating the number of drinks they have per day.

So it would be also be a reasonable assumption that many of the "moderate" drinkers thrown into the statiscal base, were actually heavier drinkers. If one were then to exclude this theoretical sub-group from the study (heavy drinker has been shown to decrease lifespan)  we might then find that the moderate drinkers again, do much better than the non-drinkers.

At this point, just too many studies showing the cardio benefits of moderate alcohol consumption to discredit them. The liver issue is somewhat separate and not in the mood to debate that but just to say that after my liver specialist accessed my TOTAL health picture, he recommended I drink in moderation to help my cardiac lipid profile.

As far as "reservatol", the research --- very concentrated amounts -- haven't yet been translated into human studies to my knowledge, nor is it clear that the "grape element" is the only thing that helps the heart. Some studies suggest beer has a similar benefit.

-- Jim
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Avatar_m_tn
In the article it was made clear that the benefits were attributable to ethanol. Wine was mentioned as perhaps possessing additional benefit -anti oxidant etc - but ethanol was the key factor. It is a rather thought provoking article. If I didn't have a liver issue I wouldn't think twice - I'd make it my routine to have 2 and only 2 drinks a day - in my case wine. But  since I have had minor liver issues I am thinking twice but I don't really know what I will do.The cardiovascular benefit along with the benefits on fasting glucose, HDL and triglycerides are quite impressive. And there is more to watch out against than just liver disease - I think there is anyway. If I was ever going to do this, now would be the time because the frequency of my labs would insure I would see something before it got far.  Mike
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Avatar_f_tn
these booze threads are tired at this point.
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148588_tn?1401923955
Cardio benefits aside, is there any evidence that ethanol in any amount does anything except stress the liver?
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86075_tn?1238118691
where did I say that the grape element is "the only" thing that purportedly helps the heart in wine drinking? So important, while debating, to read carefully...

also, this was on 20/20 or a show like that, that looked at these studies...and I don't even see where your premise that people lie on drink consumption, disputes the point that I was trying to make....youre arguing a different point, and I don't exactly know what it is...

My point being (and I do know the points I was trying to make) was regarding the particular aspect of the study that purports that moderate drinkers tend to live longer then non-drinkers (that's all) and this was disputed by the fact that in following up on some of these study participants.....they found that the reason they were non-drinkers to begin with....

was because of an underlying health problem, in some of the participants...

So you see, that was the only point I was arguing, and the fact that this study did not even consider people with compromised livers...that's all...

I wasn't arguing the benefit, or non-benefit of very moderate drinking to cardio heath...and I'm trying to be as objective as possible about all of this, I even said, if youre healthy, and have no alcoholic issues, probably not even "that big of a deal" to tie one on once in awhile....so please don't paint me as something I'm not with "predisposition remarks" respectfully....

yeah, and I'm with My Own on this...this gets so tired after awhile...
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86075_tn?1238118691
hope you don't take offense at this, but it was my understanding that liver transplant patients can't drink alcohol...due to possible interference with anti-rejection drugs etc, and a weakened immune system, or so a few of my tp friends told me, I don't know that much about liver transplant. Respectfully.

Once again, I do think there probably is a benefit to the heart for people who drink moderately, according to the studies...I'd just have to say, that we as liver compromised individuals, would have to be looked at on a case by case basis before considering this (after SVR) that's all I've ever said...
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212705_tn?1221624250
Thanks for your comment in regards to possibly helping someone. That was my intention, glad you picked up on that. Yea, can't change the facts...but hopefully someone can take heed before causing themselves unnecessary damage. But really....heroin and coke are also outta the equation? ;)
Y
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Avatar_m_tn
If it's so "tired", how come you always win the "most frequent poster in alcohol threads" award :)

I tried to stay out, until things crossed from drinking and the liver (yes, a tired but sitll important topic to some) to quite a different (but related) topic -- being cardio benefits, which I personally need as many of those (cardio benefits that is) as possible.

As to who said what and who said who said what -- I suppose anyone interested can go back and read what both of us said.

-- Jim
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86075_tn?1238118691
precisely.
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86075_tn?1238118691
Maybe  I'm just in a bitcy mood, but I just find it odd, that instead of taking responsibility for you getting my post wrong (and if you still feel the same way, cut and paste what you think I said off of my post)

And, heaven forbid, even apologizing for getting it wrong (when I had no argument with your basic premise to begin with) you, instead,  take a few more potshots at me, along with the old chesnut you've come up with a few times, "Well, let the people see for themselves, who said what and when" etc etc....seen that one a few times...

Guess youre not the first guy out there, who won't admit when he's wrong, or apologize for it either...NO OFFENSE TO ALL YOU OTHER GUYS OUT THERE, CAUSE I KNOW MANY OF YOU WHO DON'T USUALLY DO THIS! LOL!!! Some of you even ask for directions! lol....

Still and all, youre still one of the most knowledgeable, intelligent, people here, and one of the most tirelessly helpful, the board would suffer without you here....
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Avatar_m_tn
In re-reading your both complimentary (and sexist :) ) post, yes, you did not say that the grape element is the "only" benefit to alcohol, although it did seem like a bit of a detour in the argument and a flawed detour at that.

To further stand you corrected, I do ask for directions, especially when I ventured out of the house on Peg and Riba although for most of my time treating, getting from "A" to "B" was fairly easy as "A" was the bed and "B" the couch.

Speaking of directions, and men, and women for that matter, you might want to check out the classical Robert Benchley short story, "Ask that Man". Absolutely hilarious as is most of Bechley's work.

It is the story of a husband who wanted to teach his nagging wife a lesson. A wife who would constantly  tell her husband to "ask that man" for directions, rather than let him figure things out in the way that men like to do.

So, one day, they went for a drive across town to get some smokes or something (after all it was the 1940's ) and the husband promptly pretended to get lost. The wife, of course, told him to "ask that man" for directions, pointing to some stranger across the street.

The husband got out of the car, proceeded to walk across the street, and pretended  to ask the man for directions, while actually complimenting the stranger on his hat or something like that.

The husband then proceeded to drive in the opposite direction of the smoke store and get even more "lost". The wife, as her habit, told him again to "ask that man". And again, the husband stopped the car and pretended to ask the man, and then againn drive off in the wrong direction.

This scenario was repeated numerous times over the next week, as the couple-- starting in New Jersey -- somehow ended up in Tijuana Mexico, still trying to find that smoke store!

At this point,  the man turned to his wife and asked her if he should ask "that man" -- pointing to a guy a with a Sombreo, drinking a beer (had to throw that in) under a tree.

Frustrated beyond belief, the wife turned to her husband and say, "don't ask anyone, do what you think is best".  And from that day on this wife never told her husband to ask anyone for directions again !

As a post note, Benchely concludes: "The funny part is I constantly find myself (asking for directions). I guess the humiliation came in being told to ask. "

Another Benchley classic is "How to get things Done". Both stories are included in the "Benchley Roundup" but probably can be found in some of his other collections.

-- Jim



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Sorry the discussion of your article got shreded as is often the case in these alcohol threads. I do understand your interests and concerns and it goes beyond the usual alcohol debate here which at times, tends to paint everything black and white.

Like myself, your're trying to deal with some cardio issues, and this article makes a good case for moderate alcohol consumption. As mentioned, my liver doc wants me to have 1-2 drinks a day, but since it's never been my habit to have more than a couple of drinks a week, I haven't complied, but like yourself, am thinking of trying it out for awhile.  Not sure how this translates into your case, post transplant, but I'm sure between guidance from your doctor, and the constant monitoring through tests-- both liver and cardio -- you will figure something out.

Anyway, thanks for posting the article.

-- Jim

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Forsee, hope all is well with you, as for being wrong i can't remember ever being wrong. My parents named me zachary. Could me though i was wrong when i was real young and they changed my name though.:)
As for asking directions from another guy, i don't. I would just get more lost. Hope your doing great and glad to see your still here.

Jim, good to see you stuck around and still helping new people here. Like forsee said,

" youre still one of the most knowledgeable, intelligent, people here, and one of the most tirelessly helpful, the board would suffer without you here"
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Well I don't really know how to respond to what your TP friends have told you. I think that not all transplant recipients are the same. Perhaps distinctions could be made on the basis of underlying disease -Alcoholic Cirrhosis would likely exclude one from drinking - as might ongoing HCV or PSC. For SVRS with very little liver damage and excellent hepatic function I don't  know for certain the risk reward ratio. I wouldn't expect a transplant surgeon to be unbiased when looking at this question so I probably won't consult him about it. My surgeon once told me not to trust anyone and when I responded "except you, right?" he said "no, not even me". I took him at his word. Thanks for worrying about me though. I feel well looked after. Mike
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I also didnt say anything about apparent heart health benefits in drinking moderate amounts of alcohol either, I was addressing the moderate drinkers live longer issue in the study...

But we all have our own ways, no one is perfect, least of all me, I have a pretty healthy ego myself....Just some people are more gracious about being wrong, others not, if they admit any flaws in their posts at all, it's with a (Big Butt lol)  "but you didn't do this or that qualification".....whatever...I feel you have many good qualities as I so explained....you have helped many, many people here and have since I've been here...many times you are the voice of reason, when arguments can get all haywire and charged with emotions and little logic. Just that...

I've let a few of these episodes slide at the risk of sounding petty myself, this time I just thought I'd risk sounding really petty (and I know I do) to get this out of the way, sometimes keeping things in too many times can cause undue resentments, and I like to feel we are friends.I hope you still do too. :)

Can Do: So great to see you here, was just talking to Ina about you the other day. Hey, to me sometimes it's crazy to ask directions, too many people are caught up in being right at any cost, so they'll tell you stuff even though they don't know for sure...that used to happen to me in New York all the time, lol....but if I really don't have a clue, I'll ask! See if two different people tell me the same thing. Now I have a navigation system to solve all my problems, trouble is, I don't know how to operate it very well, and I'm asking people how to operate that too!

Mike Simon: yeah, I know I can come off as kind of "motherly" here and elsewhere, an obnoxious trait of mine.... lol...probably some type of sublimated maternal instinct that I have cause I never had kids myself, or some such nonsense. Because of course, any one of us can do whatever the hell we want to when it comes down to it, but we come here to debate the apparent risk/reward ratios, etc. Youre a bright guy, know you'll do what's best for yourself.
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I posted the article primarily because I found it quite illuminating. As I said, if I didn't have a liver issue I would probably research this more thoroughly and if I were convinced of the validity of the benefits outlined in that article I would think it prudent and responsible to have my 2 drinks a day. Unfortunately for me I don't think I could afford the risk to my liver and I have a moral problem with doing anything that might be disrespectful to the marvelous gift that I have received. But, I really do not know the risk/reward ratio and I'm not sure anyone would know without experimentation. I know the knee jerk response for anyone who has dealt with liver disease and though I hate knee jerk responses I can't, in good conscious, just dismiss it. I simply do not know how this would play our for me. I do know that it would be irresponsible for me to suggest that drinking is absolutely safe for someone with a background of HCV and I want to make that crystal clear. But like I said to Jim, liver disease isn't the only disease that people die from so I embrace and attempt to engage in dispassionate dialogue about a variety of diseases. And perhaps, though we might not think it prudent for us to follow the guidelines for alcohol intake suggested in the article, we might know someone for whom it would be prudent and beneficial and pass the information along to them. Mike
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Just to piggyback on Mike's thoughts, regarding "liver disease isnt' the only disease people die from", that was really the crux of my liver specialist's advice that I drink in moderation (post SVR) for the benefit of my heart. At this point, he feels there's very little risk of health complications (or death) from my liver, however given my cholesterol/lipid profile, as well as family history, there are definite health risks (including death) from my heart issues. So weighing the risks versus rewards, he suggested moderate drinking to help my cardiac profile. That said, someone with significant liver damage and no cardiac issues, would no doubt have a different take on the risk/reward equation. But just for a moment to take the cardiac issue out of it -- as some suggest it's a form or rationalization (which hopefully this thread and these studies show it's not) -- I also spoke to another liver specialist who told me to go ahead and drink socially irrespective of any cardiac issues. His feeling was that now that I was SVR, there was no reason not to resume a normal (but responsible) lifestyle, which would include moderate drinking. I would define moderate drinking as no more than two drinks a day, although I drink closer to to between two drinks a week and two drinks a month.

-- Jim
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The alcohol thing always gets my attention as there is so much opinion on it.  I personally feel moderation (being responsible) is the key, and not just to alcohol.   Food (junk food), cigarettes, and the list goes on and on.

My purpose of this post is to say "thank you" one hundred times over to you for responding to a post I did around month 3 into this treatment. I am a 2b, did 24 weeks.   However, into week 11 or 12, my ANC levels and WBC were very low and was told to go on Neupogen.  I hesitated and told my doctor I didn't want to do this. You were kind enough to forward me a link to an article about this, protocol when prescribed, when levels are really too low, etc.   Due to my persistence with my doctor, I was monitored closer with blood work, and YES my ANC rose on its own.   I realize not everyone would have this, but for me it did rise.     I'm now 9 weeks post treating and feeling better all the time.  Last CBC blood work showed WBC, RBC, ANC etc. all rising and within normal ranges.

Again, thank you.  
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Glad it all worked out. Early-on, I noticed two things here in regard the way many doctors managed side effects. First, was a tendency either not to administer Procrit (epo) or administer it too late. And second, was a tendency to administer Neupogen too soon. (Won't even go into how many doctors lower dose before either).  Ironically, it's often the same doctors who come in too late with Procrit who come in too soon with Neupogen.

The difference is once hemoglobin starts sinking, it usually keeps going, not to mention the side effects. ANC (WBC) on the other hand, tend to bounce around a lot, and some studies suggest that low ANC (on treatment) is not associated with more infections, etc, as is the case in other instances. My medical team uses Procrit liberally, and rarely uses Neupogen unless ANC drops close to 200 and stays there. They are hepatologists (liver specialists) and have a very large treatment base, as opposed to simply following cookbook protocols.

All the best,

-- Jim
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ARE YOU NUTTS??? WHY WOULD YOU TAKE A CHANCE AT MESSIN UP WHAT YOUVE ACCOMPLISHED??  MAYBE IM NUTS , WHO KNOWS
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SIMPLE ANSWER! NO! NO! NO! NO! YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK YOURSELF THIS DID YOU DEVELOP HEP C FROM DRINKING????????
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Well if your gonna take advice from the internet, Go get yourself a case and a couple packs of smokes and get to drinking, while your at it get a bottle and do a couple of shots to get that buzz kicking!!
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Moderate Wine Consumption Improves Fasting Plasma Glucose Levels in Diabetics
from Heartwire — a professional news service of WebMD

September 21, 2007 (Amsterdam, the Netherlands) - A randomized trial conducted in diabetic teetotalers suggests that a glass of wine with dinner may improve glucose control, particularly in those with higher HbA1c levels to begin with. The study, while small, adds to anecdotal evidence and meta-analyses that suggest wine, whose cardiovascular benefits have been widely touted, may hold specific benefits for diabetics.

Dr Iris Shai (Ben Gurion University, Beer-Sheva, Israel) presented the results of the study here at the European Association for the Study of Diabetes 2007 Meeting.

Shai noted that the proportion of alcohol abstainers is relatively high in Israel, where the study was conducted; however, the potential health benefits of moderate alcohol consumption persuaded 109 adults between the ages of 40 and 75 to participate. Indeed, dropouts during the three-month trial were higher among those randomized to the nonalcoholic diet malt beer than among those randomized to their choice of red or white wine, with many of the dropouts citing their disappointment over not being assigned to the alcohol group.

At the end of three months, 91 subjects remained in the study; those in the alcohol-intervention group experienced a statistically significant drop in fasting plasma glucose, from a mean of 139.6 mg/dL to 118 mg/dL. By contrast, subjects in the nonalcoholic-beer group experienced no real change in fasting plasma glucose.

Of note, alcohol consumption did not appear to affect two-hour postprandial glucose levels. Shai pointed out that ethanol metabolism is believed to inhibit gluconeogenesis, which could increase the risk of hypoglycemia. "Because of this, patients were guided to drink their beverage during dinner, which was a carbohydrate-based meal. But this process largely controls fasting, rather than postmeal, glycemia," she said, which might help explain the lack of an effect on two-hour postprandial glucose.

Better glucose, better sleep

Changes in fasting plasma glucose levels were particularly marked among patients who had higher baseline HbA1c levels, Shai noted. Waist circumference and LDL levels were also reduced from baseline over the three-month period in the alcohol-intervention group, but no changes from baseline were seen in HDL levels. While "surprising," Shai suggested that the lack of effect on HDL might be due to the relatively short duration of the trial.

Prompting giggles in the audience, Shai said that despite a range of other parameters queried or measured in the trial, the only other significant difference between the two study groups was an improved ability to fall asleep, reported in the alcohol-intervention arm of the study.

Three months after the termination of the trial, 61% of the study subjects told investigators that they believed alcohol was likely beneficial and 49% were continuing to drink alcohol in moderation.
The complete contents of Heartwire, a professional news service of WebMD, can be found at www.theheart.org, a Web site for cardiovascular healthcare professionals.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563210?sssdmh=dm1.304436&src=nldne

Mike


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You may remember me from the late august drinking thread- I had problems quitting, but i did because its not worth it. i go to events every single night (for work) with lots of drinks and everyone is drinking a glass or two.  Tonight- i one good example- a Congressman handed me a drink- i said NOPE- sparkling water with lime please!  It was hard transitioning, but my health is worth it.  I also didn't drink on my trip to Europe... thanks to all for the advice.. gigi
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I've seen conflicting posts on smoking- isn't it just as bad?  Are the complications dif't for B than they are for C? Just curious...
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ps- i dont smoke, but im exposed to second hand quite frequently
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SIMPLE ANSWER! NO! NO! NO! NO! YOU MIGHT WANT TO ASK YOURSELF THIS DID YOU DEVELOP HEP C FROM DRINKING????????
_______________________

You cannot develop Hepatitis C from drinking. If you have Hepatitis C, you can make it worse by drinking.
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Study: Three drinks a day ups breast cancer risk

By Michael Kahn, Reuters  |  September 26, 2007

BARCELONA --Three or more drinks a day, whether beer, wine or spirits, boost a woman's risk of breast cancer as much as smoking a pack of cigarettes, U.S. researchers said on Thursday.

The relationship between alcohol and breast cancer is known but there has been little data on whether the choice of drink made a difference, they told a European Cancer Conference.

In what the researchers said was one of the largest studies to investigate links between breast cancer and alcohol -- found that alcohol itself and the amount a person consumed were key rather than the type of drink.

"Studies have consistently linked drinking alcohol to an increased risk of female breast cancer, but until now there has been little data, most of it conflicting, about an independent role played by the choice of beverage type," Arthur Klatsky of Kaiser Permanente in California and one of the researchers said.

Breast cancer is the second most common cancer killer of women, after lung cancer. It will be diagnosed in 1.2 million people globally this year and will kill 500,000.

Other studies have shown that light- to moderate alcohol use can protect against heart attacks, though Klatsky said other mechanisms were probably at work.

The heart protection likely comes from alcohol-induced "good" cholesterol, reduced blood clotting and decreased diabetes risk. But for breast cancer, the ethyl alcohol found in all booze likely ups the risk, the researchers said.

The researchers looked at the drinking habits of more than 70,000 women from a variety of ethnic backgrounds who supplied information during health examinations between 1978 and 1985. By 2004, nearly 3,000 of the women were diagnosed with breast cancer.

Among women who drank, the team examined a preference for a type of alcohol and how much of each drink people consumed. They also compared the total amount consumed and compared it to women who drank less than one drink a day.

Women who drank between one and two alcoholic drinks per day increased their risk of breast cancer by 10 percent compared with people who consumed less than one drink each day, the study found. The risk of breast cancer jumped by 30 percent in women who drank more than three drinks a day.

The results were also similar in different age and ethnic groups, the researchers said.
© Copyright 2007 Reuters. Reuters content is the intellectual property of Reuters or its third-party content providers. Any copying, republication, or redistribution of Reuters content, including by caching, framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.
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U kids stop bickerin.
Ive always heard, "stop drinkin, stop smokin, lose weight". I did all that (with the help of 2 rounds of tx) and I cant say Im any happier or better off. I can say that if I continue to poison myself I wont have to watch my grievin wife and sons.
triggertime
I might not be any good but Im slow
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well said. I do feel like it gets kinda kindergarten when flare-ups happen on message boards, maybe why I look a little young for my age, good old immaturity, does it every time!!!, ha ha! But the good thing is, that for the most part, things blow-over in hours. Just like kindergarten, come to think! lol... I hope youre doing well....
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I recently chose a new primary-care physician. After two visits and exhaustive lab tests, he said I was doing "fairly well" for my age.  A little concerned about that comment, I couldn't resist asking him, "Do you think I'll live to be 80?"

He asked, "Do you smoke tobacco or drink alcoholic beverages?"

"No," I replied. "I don't do drugs, either.

Then he asked, "Do you eat rib-eye steaks and barbecued ribs?"

I said, "No, my other doctor said that all red meat is unhealthy!"

"Do you spend a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf, boating, fishing or relaxing on the beach?"

"No, I don't," I said.

He asked, "Do you gamble, drive fast cars, or have a lot of sex?"

"No," I said. "I don't do any of those things."

Then he looked at me and asked, "Then why do you give a S**t?"

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I figured that was your high school year book photo. Mike
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This thread is BIAS, & SAD @ best...
WoW... what happened to stage, grade & individuality... or the difference between use & abuse?
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Tater:
WoW... what happened to ... grade & individuality
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Very good point. Only beer and wine has been mentioned. What about a fine congnac?
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That was cute, and the point is......continuing to LIVE  a little with whatever limitations you have and don't take EVERYTHING so serious.
I agree with that Dr.! If your sitting staring at a wall 24/7, your not living anyway. (do think it ALL boils down to ...don't overdue anything!)
         made me laugh :)
                                                                                        LL
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If I had to pay out of my pocket, expenses of $100,000 I don’t think alcohol would be on any diet plan of mine going forward if I should clear this virus.

Ya know! If more people had to pay the full Monty or more of the Insurance Co-Pay to rid themselves of this virus no matter how they contacted it, it would be a no brainer as to what to and what not to do to keep your liver clean and healthy. From an economical point of view it will cost anywhere from between $70,000 to $100,000 dollars to rid this virus and that is not including any complications. At some point in time everyone will have to pay higher co-pays as more and more people find out they have the virus, there are a lot more baby boomers hitting that stage in their lives where health will become the main issue and the drug and insurance companies know this, so enjoy the low cost benefits now and be kind to your liver.
jasper
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the alcohol thread always finds a way to stay on the top......that says something about how important alcohol was/is/will be in our lives....irrespective of the fact that we always talk about it in a nonchalant way and potray that we are always in control(though a few of us might be in control)
My personal take after so many threads in the past few months?
If you have hep c,avoid alcohol pretx, during tx and also post tx until you are UND at six months or more better until you achieve SVR one year after tx
Once you achieve SVR,reassess your cravings for a drink and if you can control yourself your life would be better off without alcohol
AFTR SVR.. if you need to have a few drinks once in a while..please do so and donot torture yourself...just ensure you are in charge and not the bottle....which might be easier said than done
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This thread is BIAS, & SAD @ best...
WoW... what happened to stage, grade & individuality... or the difference between use & abuse?


That’s why I don’t bother posting on the issue. It seems most people put “Heppers” in a box forgetting, not everyone has significant Liver Damage and not everyone that drinks, has a drinking problem. Some people’s research on the subject goes no further than “Having a Drink of Alcohol is like Pouring Gasoline on a Fire” My thoughts on the matter is, Reach SVR, Find out the Status of my Liver, Live out my Life the way I Choose to. If that includes Cracking Open a Cold Beer, then so be it.
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You have my vote for best alcohol post of the year.

Be well,

-- Jim
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I just think sometimes that this comes down to presentation as well...the info in your post is what most of us have been saying all along...even though my posts (and a few others) are interpreted as "anti-alcohol" posts, and we're fuddyduddy's that want to take the zest out of life...or I've heard as much.......

I've always essentially said what you said in your post...and I'm sure your post is interpreted as a pro-alcohol post, and mine not, but we're saying the same thing! Presentation.

"Don't drink before treatment, or during treatment, if you're damage isn't significant, drink moderately after SVR...if you don't have a drinking problem." That's what most people say on this. Yet there's so much dispute, and it's so simple.
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Forseegood: .I've always essentially said what you said in your post
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Thanks for the chuckle :) I just don't see it at all. And btw, while I don't want to step on Rglass's words, he  did not say anything about "significant" damage or not-- just that you should access your damage and then make your own decision. Nor did he say anything about "before treatment" -- that is your spin and btw my doc -- as well as others -- allowed me to drink in moderation before treatment.

-- Jim
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Shastri,- Agree, R glass agree (good post) , Forseegood-agree! It's all about the SVR, liver damage there AND a drink or too, NOT a bottle every day! Even with no hep, no tx, no damage, an everyday bottle a day drinker will end up with damage!
If you don't agree, don't drink. If you do agree, have a beer! (not now! AFTER SVR :}
Same thing for a pain pill, valium, etc. , use as little as needed. 2 a day, okay.....10 a day...no.
  D*M , it is that simple.
The biggest thing to remember in these post.....no stone throwing, judgements!
and AFTER tx, AFTER SVR, AFTER a bx telling me where my liver is at and IF okay...... I WILL have a wine at my sons weddings or my Halloween party beer :} just not 10 of them!! ( i could never handle more than a few anyway:}

jmjm- as for her reward for best post..... what ya' think...a '2 pack' of beer :}
Peace :}
                                                                  LL
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Lady: jmjm- as for her reward for best post..... what ya' think...a '2 pack' of beer :}
----------------
For some reason, I thought "RGlass" was a "he", but I stand corrected if wrong.

Forsee,

Just to be clear, you have every right to your opinion, but you can't re-write history in one post although I admit that in the last few months your alcohol thread posts have turned around 180 degrees. Prior to that, you practically called me -- or anyone suggesting drinking before SVR was OK -- an alcoholic. And to top it off, you suggested that any doctor who would allow a patient to drink with HCV was probably an alcoholic as well. It's all over at the Janis site as I'm sure you remember. Teriffic if you've changed your opinions. No harm or bad feeling, just wanted to set the record straight.

-- Jim

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I am all male or the Ugliest Woman ever created. R= Ricky
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My hopes were up for a minute, but maybe we can skip that drink then.
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youre proving my point...I didn't say it was okay to drink BEFORE SVR, and I never have...what rewriting history????I'm saying the exact thing I always have..sorry, but I think you have a problem with me, not this subject...in another post, you admonish me for talking off topic in these threads with gauf, when you did the exact same thing just moments before...as much as I respect you, and respect what you do here for all the newcomers, your knowledge, intelligence in many things, youre a far greater asset to this board then me......why don't you lay off me for awhile, I'm serious...I seem to trigger you in some way, and I'm getting bored with it all...with all respect to you....
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If you re-read "RGlass's" post, your response post, and my following post, you will see that you have misinterpreted what is going on. I never said you said it was OK to drink BEFORE SVR. What I said is that RGlass made no mention to drinking before SVR, yet you categorized his post as if he did. Please re-read the three posts and I'm sure you will see what I meant. And I'm not picking on you, just continuing this alcohol debate that you have agressively introduced yourself into for close to two years now. It's not personal -- and I can't think of any other subject we've bumped heads on -- but if you're going to take a strong stance on a subject, you can't ask others to lay off their opposing stance.

-- Jim
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chug a lug chug a lug - makes you feel good inside - makes your liver wanna hide
chug a lug chug a lug

*yawn*
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phew...boy I am glad to see that I am NOT the only one who feels strongly about some things and  goes off on tangens on some things. Now I feel normal!!! Thank you all for being human!!!!
(said with kindness)
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"my liver doc wants me to have 1-2 drinks a day"
_____________________________________

Never thought I'd be saying this, but I don't think I could drink that much!  LOL!

FlGal
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wait a minute - back that bus up Jim - are you saying a Liver Specialist has reccomended you drink?????
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Opps.... sorry SIR!  Only been on here a few mths. and still following who's who! With some names your not always sure :}
Guess that means you get a ' 3 pack' instead of a 2 pack:)
                                                                    LL
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Are 'chill pill's' okay with hep and tx ???
In a kind, tho it's a thought way...........
                                                                  LL
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Take a chill pill.

Yes, AFTER SVR my liver specialist suggested I have 1-2 drinks with dinner to enhance my cardiac profile, especially my low HDL.

Currently, my liver is in good shape based on blood tests, scans, and both a mid-treatment and post-treatment Fibroscan -- so  given my cardiac profile -- high LDL, low HDL, Hi Tri's -- plus my families not so terrific cardiac history (heart attack city) -- my main health issue is my heart, not liver.

I know you think your Canadian doc is over the moon, but my doc is right up there -- a major U.S. liverhead who runs many trials. Another equally eminent liver specialist I consulted with said he also has no problem with me drinking in moderation -- although I asked the question, so I can't say he "recommended" it. But the first one did. In fact, what the second doc said was that I shouldn't treat my liver any differently than if I never had Hep C. That doesn't mean to abuse it, because he stated he didn't think anyone should abuse their liver, with alcohol or anything else. But a drink here or there is not abusing it.

I think "RGlass" summed it up very well in his post above where he states the alcohol issue tends to get oversimplified here.

-- Jim
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If the subject of alcohol's positive effect on the heart is new to you, check out a number of Mike Simon[s recent posts on the subject. It should be in another one of these alkie threads nearby.
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If the subject of alcohol's positive effect on the heart is new to you, check out a number of Mike Simon[s recent posts on the subject. It should be in another one of these alkie threads nearby.
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...and even after 80 some odd posts, that may be oversimplified. I was told (by my primary doc) to have one (not one or two) beer or glass of wine per day post-SVR because, though my LDL was OK (around 100), my HDL was the lowest he'd ever seen (under 20). When I tried it I couldn't hang - felt stupid/lethargic. I've always had a problem with alc, even pre-HBV/HCV. Maybe it was the hep A I had as a kid. Still looking for a non-pharmaceutical way to raise that 'good' cholesterol.
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Avatar_m_tn
Under 20 is very low. Have you considered statin drugs to at least lower your HDL/LDL ratio? Nathan Pritkin posted some older studies of New Guinea natives that suggested that the protective nature of HDL was not needed when LDL was extremely low. This was the case with the New Guinea natives that had low HDL's but also very low LDL's -- probably under 80, not sure.

Don't know how much you weigh, but oft women (because of generally lower bodyweight) are suggested only one drink, while men are suggested two. In any event, our doctors are on the same page. But like yourself, I have a hard time doing the daily drinks with dinner -- also makes me a bit sleepy which sometimes I don't want to be -- so I probably average closer to 1-2 drinks per week. That said, I may buy a case of some good wine this winter and see if I can make it a habit to at least have one good glass of wine with dinner. Outside of alcohol, the only other way to raise HDL I know of are statins (but they don't raise it very much) and exercise.

-- Jim
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Avatar_m_tn
Didn't mean to suggest you were a woman. That came out wrong :)
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Avatar_m_tn
I thought; "How can this be 90 responses?!?  Let me throw in my 2 cents.

Let me preface my remarks with the fact that I really don't drink but have had a celebratory 4 beers or so since my DX 4+ years ago.  I DO drink coffee and so I scruptuously collect articles which support it's antioxident properties and it's ability to diminish the chance of HCC. (Yes, guys have a higher chance of that; something to do with testosterone)  We all collect the data we want to have on various topics.

Reading about HCV over the few years since DX I have noticed a preponderence of contradictory information about HCV.  I also see lack of information about HCV.  I mean...... yes, there are general studies  but relatively few about the effects of drinking post TX for SVR's or that specifically weigh the health pros (would that be prose in this thread? : )) and cons for people who treated and cured?   Therefore I'd submit that people are speculating a tad on the subject.  They are using a general study to apply to the HCV population.  That may or may not be a sound practice.

I'd also just float out there another "truth" or one as I see it.  We see people who have dramatic lifestyle differences here.  Why do some folks drink and drug and have minor damage where others live "clean" lives and suffer substantial damage?  Why are some folks like MREmeet who treat, clear, and feel great and others suffer long term treatment issues?  Extrapolating the differences onto this thread....... the answer is that we may all experience different results no matter what course we choose; your milage may vary.

Finally....when people ask questions such as as in this thread I think that responders should tend to err on the "safe" side; does that seem reasonable?  To ask how much one can drink in a hepatitiis board almost seems ridiculous.  Any yet it is a very common question.  Do you remember the Woody Allen line from one of his movies?  When he was told as a adolecent (adolescent) that masturbation would make him go blind he responded; "can I do it till I just need glasses?"   One needs to consider when one answers the question; "Can I drink?" the extent of the intent.  IF for some the symptoms and progression of liver damage is silent how does one know specifically when to stop?

Which brings me to the last "final" point;  I think these threads are common because for many of us we are still looking for the "real" or "true" answer for us.  I'd submit that it may not exist and that actually proving it for us may be a ways off.  Until then; we will all try to prove our own hypothesis; either on line or in our lives.  Good luck with it all, but we ARE the data on that upcoming studies (which "proves" as decisively as medical scince can) what will happen to us as a group over the next 5-10 years.  That's something to consider as we make our decisions.

And....don't you ALL look like your high school photos?  : )

best,
Willy
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Avatar_m_tn
Willy: Finally....when people ask questions such as as in this thread I think that responders should tend to err on the "safe" side; does that seem reasonable?
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First, thanks for clarifying your sex upfront. I'm also a male, so this can be man-to-man :)

I agree with many of your points and observations. As to responders" err on the 'safe' side', please note that I don't think anyone (including myself) has every suggested anyone drink ANY alcohol. What we have done (in answers to legitimate questions) has been to share what our doctors have told us, shared what we ourselves are doing, and on occasion posted some studies or articles. I think this is appropriate.

As to lack of studies, some have been posted -- both ways -- but the latest I've read, suggests that the earlier studies were flawed because they lumped heavy drinkers and light drinkers together. That study concluded that light drinkers with HCV demonstrate no more liver damage than non-drinkers. Certainly nothing definitive -- studies often aren't -- but that's what it says.

As to the doc, who suggested I drink with dinner, remember he suggested that *I* have a drink with dinner, not you, or anyone one else. I'm someone who is SVR, whose liver seems to be doing quite well, and someone with some signficant cardiac issues.

Be well,

-- Jim
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229003_tn?1193705524
any Doctor that would say it is okay to drink with liver disease is not one I would ever listen to - And your remark of my "Canadian" Doctor being over the moon was uncalled for and offensive - How arrogant of you!! - Do I say hey Jim Your "American" Doctor is nuts, no I do not - Because that would be rude and argumentative...It has been quite apparent that you try to give EVERYONE on this board advice and in most cases your advice usually contradicts what their Doctor has told them - I remember you when you were treating, you pushed the envelope on all the protocols, most likely drove your Doctor insane and were single handed in scaring the b'jeez outta me with your constant drama of horrific side effects - You have been off tx for over a year now - doncha think it is time to move on with your life - You ARE NOT a Doctor - Do something positive with your life , get a job to start with - or a hobby or a puppy!

And another thing - I see a Cardiologist on a regular basis (ever hear of Lahey Clinic in MA) and Bruce Mirbach my Cardiologist told me anyone with cardiac issues should drink NO MORE than 1 to 2 drinks a week - NOT PER NIGHT - and that applies to those who a healthy heart as well..

You constantly shoot holes in anything I post and it is getting old - Again - I reiterate - YOU'RE NOT A DOCTOR please stop telling people what to do -

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Avatar_m_tn
First, that wasn't an insult to your doctor. I think my doc is "over the moon" just like you do yours.

As to being "rude and argumentative" anyone who has been here awhile should appreciate how funny that is coming from you. I'm not the one who has been booted off of MedHelp for being rude and argumentative  in the past. You were.

Recently, when you've posted, I've tried to offer some advice in terms of your treatment, but obviously it's not appreciated. Good luck moving foward, I will not post to you again.

-- Jim
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229003_tn?1193705524
thank you I would appreciate that - and the reason I was "booted" off in the past was becasue I stuck up for YOU!!! but of course you neglected to mention that
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Avatar_m_tn
My understanding was that you were booted because you trashed MH publically for a name change of something or another. And you did it more than once.

But yes, you were one of the more vocal ones standing up for me, and I truly did appreciate that. That "***Devil" post of yours is a true classic :)

And you know I appreciated your support  because I conveyed that message to you. And because of that, I do regret even more our recent disagreements which I did not start, because we once were "pals" here.

I can only assume it's because my opinions re Watch N' Wait are hard to swallow when one is treating. Unfortunatly, MH doesn';t have a separate section (like some other boards) where those treating and those thinking about treating have more defined spaces. But this place is what it is.

Anyway, obviously things have changed between the two of us. You have your strong opinions and I have mine. I'll write the rest of the stuff you wrote about me to the ribavirin, but whatever, it doesn't matter. Hopefully, folks here will be able to extract a good mix of points of view from all the name calling nonsense.

-- Jim

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Avatar_m_tn
By the way, I happen to like your posts; you can stay.  : )

None of us are doctors.  We are all just offering what we do or offering up our opinions.  In some cases that may have some real value.  Many doctors aren't obsessive enough to do all the research that we do.  Much of what we think we know is very current.  For example, I had to tell my doctor what a Fibrosure Test was.  I had to tell the local hospital what the Vertex trials were about when they called me up to ask if I wanted to go on an Albuferon trial.  Some of you guys have access to world class doctors and I think you can take what they tell you "to the bank".  You'll have to admit that it is not the case for all of us and that seeking on line responses is also a good option to round out our thinking or information.

All that I was trying to do was inject the notion that there is uncertainty in this equation given the information available today.  It's certainly appropriate to post studies; they are the best information we have today.  It's the drawing hard conclusions that I resist.  Sometimes the correct answer is I don't know, or it may not be known.

I've got a friend that's a mechanic.  Sometimes he makes mild fun of some of his customers.  Their criteria for whether to fix the car or not is; "Will it make it to New York?"  LOL.  I don't know if Vishnu or the Buddha knows if the car will make it to New York.  : )  

The question; "Can I drink?" has a similar honest and refreshing simplicity to it.   It's the answer to the question that leaves us feeling a little like my mechanic friend.  Some of the livers will not make it to New York.

Thanks for the rebuttal.

Willy

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86075_tn?1238118691
just wanted to say, that your "Im A Guy" post was one of the most insightful, and brilliantly worded posts I have ever had the pleasure of reading, you summed up so many issues  (polemics aside) with true wisdom and courtesy. I think this is an emotional and controversial topic for a reason, or reason(s), but you managed to state your views in a way that didn't offend anybody (and that's saying something with this particular topic). Bravo.
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Avatar_m_tn
Thanks for the kind words.  I saw this earlier but was working and just got in.  It's a great compliment especially when there are so many great writers here.  I also only want to mention that there is truth and validity in every single post in this thread.

best wishes,
willy
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266084_tn?1194898649
Wow. Thank God I didn't Ask the Question...

Actually for Someone New to Hepatitis B, its a Valid Question.

All the Posts are Regarding Hepatitis C, What about Hepatitis B.
Say if you are "cleared" or Chronic/Carrier..

What Then.??

I Used to Enjoy a Drink, Dx was Just Late in Acute Infection. Been Drinking While Acute Symptoms.
Obviously Now I'm Teetotal now I know.
However Where do I stand in Say 6-12months Time.
I Do love fine Wine and The rare single malt, What a waste. But I value My Health More!!!

Dou't Shout at me,
It's a Genuine question!! So I dont want to Start a Thread.
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179856_tn?1333550962
Hey girl I have a question:

"is it okay if I could have a nice shot of heroin, maybe a speedball with a little coke kicker???

As far as I know...it doesn't really hurt the liver and God knows I could use the energy.  Seriously - Im thinking of becoming a meth addict just to get through the day.  Do you think it would be ok to start now instead of waiting another3 months? Is that close enough to SVR?

Please advise.
:)
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229003_tn?1193705524
hahaha  you're a nut girl!!!! thanks for the laugh!
*dippy*
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86075_tn?1238118691
well, maybe the heroin is okay, but the cocaine is known to be a much worse liver toxin then heroin, so maybe just a half dose with the cocaine...meth is definitely out, it causes hair loss and pimples:) ha ha ha ha!!!!!!
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Avatar_m_tn
It has been a year since my last treatment. I went through a research center here in S.A. Tx. First time they did my blood work my viral count was over a million. One week after treatment with the Peg- intron , Ribavirin and what I cal the Miracle Drug PSI-7977 it went down to 140 and two weeks after it was already undected. I was on this for 6 months always came back undetected. I got my official letter stating that it represents a SVR to treatment; a CURE. I am still negative and not infected with the virus. It took about a year after my last treatment to start feeling great again. Of course the bad thing is I have rhumatoid arthritis so for awhile it was kicking me in the butt. I also asked the doctor if I could have a beer or glass of wine on occasion. I got my hepC from a transfusion I received 28 years ago, had a littlr fat and inflammed liver but that was it. I thought I had lupus cause my hair was falling out and was tired all the time. when they told me what it was I freaked. All these years and that nsty bug was in my liver. stick to ice water and if you want to take a chance go for thebeer. They told me that if I started drinking heavily that the virus could come back. Never have been a drinker so I'd rather die of something else. peace out and good luck.
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Avatar_f_tn
here's two cents...first penny...kick the habit...grew up with alcoholic co-dependent parents..didn't have a drink until I was 27...but at all the teen allanon (sp?) meetings I've been too and when my kid brothers were going through college and my ex and I were always getting them out of alcohol related predictaments went to many meetings...had several judges and the counselors tell us at almost every turn....what makes an alcoholic is not the amount consumed but the need to consume...meaning, if you have to have that one beer at the end of the day that need is what puts you in the alcoholic status...not the amount you drink.  And here is your second penny... the day they told me I had Hep C and having worked in detox and ER for years...I stopped drinking immediately...and back then, that was a feat itself plus I put done the mj and walked away from both.  I have over the last 20 yrs tipped a few but one good thing about getting older...the 1 glass of wine or 1 beer is like the effect of 10,  You've gone this long without...make a pursuit of taking care of the gift you have been given...many of us would like to be in your shoes.... oh, and ps...over the 20 yrs my viral load has gone extremely high that they have told me I have 30 days to get my affairs in order to going in the opposite direction....then everyone relaxs.....old bad habits come back and your load goes back up there....even without the Hep C it is amazing what the liver can and can not withstand and what it does....why throw alcohol on it?  If you do drink, hydrate with water before and after....you know it is a fact that when people get hangovers it is actually their liver freaking out at what has been thrown at it to process.... and to those of you who have jokingly said this or that doesn't affect the liver....what worlds are you living in?  It certainly isn't reality.  EVERYTHING you put into your body and the environmental elements affect your liver... Someone should really write a Liver Book for Dummies.............
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