Insomnia?

[Lulu54]

This is getting to be ridiculous! I have been into a horrible pattern for several months now of  waking in the wee hours of the morning - I mean earlier than even when  the early birds start singing/  I'm getting 4-5 hours a night.  Last night I was asleep at 10 but woke at 3:35.  I make myself stay in bed, but I rarely go back to sleep.

I don't have caffeine, so I know its not a stimulant keeping me awake. I used to have no trouble getting 7-8 hours of deep sleep. I do have sleeping pills, but I hate to get into the habit of using the,  I think I am going to have to start.

There is a question in all of this - I'm wondering if anyone else has  this same problem?

sleepless in Ohio,
L

[core13]

Glad to hear your finally sleeping again.  I'm 54 and seem to have this problem several times a year.  I stay away from sleeping pills, and take an herbal remedy called Valerain, (it's actually a root).  

It helps you fall asleep quickly, and it doesn't make you groggy in the morning.  There's been a lot of studies and trials, and it seems that it is not harmful even if your taking other meds, and it's not addictive.  I am on Betaseron, and I have had no problems, and after a few days my sleep cycle is back to normal and I stop taking it.

Core13

[Lulu54]

I'm happy to report I had a second night of 7 hours of uninterrupted sleep.  Here's hoping tonight is #3. All along I had a feeling I had gotten into a routine/habit that would need to be broken.  

[sllowe]

fwiw - They do make an aid for what you are experiencing.. It's not to fall asleep, but for "staying" asleep. Either way, hope you get back on track soon.

Had many years of being a sleep-deprived zombie, and it's a wretched world to live in like that.

[twopack]

You are welcome Lu.  I did read and understand the type of insomnia you described.  That's why my original response started out with, "My guess is that sleeping pills won't help this.  You already fall asleep fine."

Interestingly enough, many of the potential remedies work equally well whether a person has trouble falling asleep at a normal bedtime or is plagued by the early awakening type of insomnia.

Hope you continue to cycle into REM dreams with no interruptions through the night.  Then this second night can build into a third, fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh building the first of many weeks of rested slumber.

[Lulu54]

Thanks for all the input, twopack. I have no problem falling asleep - I am almost always out in 2-3 minutes of putting my head on the pillow.  

I've usually skipped the sleep aids because I don't like the morning after feeling.  Last night was a desperation more - I really needed to get sleep and didn't want to take a chance I would be awake early again.  

Tonight it is without drugs -
L

[twopack]

I would think any drug designed to relax a person, induce sleep or decrease pain has the potential to reduce blood pressure as well.  You will always need to be careful with such drugs since you run a low BP to start.  Even the best of the best docs will fail to think of this or warn their patients it could happen - or how long the drug will take to wear off.

You know Lulu, you could ask your accupuncture practicioner to show you some of the sites that are known to induce sleep.  You could perform pressure applications yourself if he/she is willing to give a quick tutorial.

Lots of my questions were aimed toward the same advice your doctor friend offered.  I'm glad to see my offering was sound.  

For myself, I've discovered I might as well get up and do something when I can't sleep.   I generally get sleepy again soon as long as I don't choose an overly interesting activity.  Besides, a mind gets stimulated by thoughts that spring from within as well as without.  That's why a recorded relaxation exercise (like the one the docta described) is so good for anyone not well practiced in the technique.  It keeps the mind focused while allowing it to let go at the same time.

Finally, the best sleep advice I ever heard goes like this:
Never work at falling asleep.
Sleep is like love. It arrives only when you don’t try to force it.

[Lulu54]

My PCP prescribed trazodone (it increases seratonin production in the brain but is technically an antidepressant)  last year that  I could try - I finally gave it a go last night and I slept very well until this morning.  I got about 7 hours.  

But when it was time to get up, it took me quite a while to feel like I was ok to walk without  staggering or even falling. Turns out it lowers BP, which is the last think I need.  And now, I have been up 2 hours but feel ready to take a nap.  So it must be a trazodone induced hangover. ?

Tonight I'm going to go through the exercises my friend gave me and hope that I can find a non-chemical way to sleep more.  And there is no time to nap today, so that is off the list of possibilities.

[Lulu54]

I was whining on Facebook yesterday about my lack of sleep, and a good friend who also happens to be a family doc posted the following and maybe it will help one of you-

"the problem is that we sleep the way we sleep the night before. In other words, if you awoke today at three am , you will do the same tomorrow.. What to do? Sleep hygiene .
Don't take naps during the day.
Avoid any alcohol in the evenings.
Use cotton pj's. Avoid synthetic fabrics. Chronic conditions may give you night sweats, breathable fabrics work better.
If you are fully awake at three am,don't read, watch TV or put your lights on. You need to avoid any stimulations, otherwise your brain would think is 7 am.
Do not check the time! Place your watches facing a wall.
If you are awake, close your eyes and starting with your toes, flex them, slowly , counting 1,2,3,4 until 10. Then relax them slowly counting 1,2,3,4....until 10. In an ascending matter, flex your calf, tights, gluteus, lower back, abdominal area , etc.
IF you start thinking about something different than this exercise , return to your toes, and start counting again.
Insomnia afflict us at all levels, the most important thing is to rule out other illnesses , Sleep Apnea is perhaps the number one culprit.
Try these exercises, and good luck."

[supermum_ms]

Morning Mary, well you've really got me thinking lol and before my first cup of coffee has gone cold too.  I hear what your saying and i wouldn't fault any of it, and it is true you cant really judge for ourselves how much sleep we are getting or the quality of that sleep. Although you would presume a person would have some typical signs of having had a poor sleep, for me i love mornings, they are my best time of the day.

I'm more energetic, bubbly, the tremors are at there lowest, cognitively i'm more switched on and verbally its harder to tell there is an issue. My walking gate and balance is even better in the morning, it all takes a down ward slide the longer i'm fighting gravity, with the more i do, the worse i get element to it. I cant say the same with my afternoon rest, the tremors only settle a little bit and for a lot shorter time frame, nothing has really impoved much. I still feel weak, lol the kettle always seems to be heavier in the evenings.

[Lol life interupted so its now after lunch and my window is starting to close] Anyhooo i think my sleeping position is more to do with movement,  on my stomach and i'm completely imobalised, think crime scene chalk outline. When i lay down like a normal person lol i'm not using as much energy eg as when i'm sitting in a chair. There is less movement laying down because of the support and even though my body is never quiet anymore, its still less energy usage and why i feel more awake. Constantly moving is physically exhausting, taking that away even for a little while is just an energy boost for me.

Cheers...........JJ

ps i sleep the dead, um even had a car through the front window and i slept through it, and i'm pretty sure not getting to the toilet in time is an indication my bladder is what woke me up :o)

[sandythegeek2]

I've had insomnia problems for over 20 years. I now take Benadryl every night. Not addictive and no weird side effects. I'm able to stay sane with it. I get too much anxiety without. I tried prescription sleeping pill and it was horrible.

I get up at least once a night to potty.

[Sidesteps]

I cycle through periods of insomnia when my body is under mental stress. As long as I don't feel tired during the day, I no longer worry. I take one or two melatonin when I am feeling like I am needing a catch up once in awhile or when i am flared and feel like I need more rest.

Years ago, my doctor prescribed Tazodone when it was at its worst. Tazodone was tested as an anti-depressant but they found that it was best served as a non-addictive sleep and night pain aid.  They frequently prescribe it for those with Fibromyalgia and Arthritis. Mine was three kids in three years and not getting into REM as the kids were waking me every two to three hours then I couldn't fall back asleep easily. I was severely sleep deprived.

[debgen]

Hi Lulu,
So sorry that you are having so much trouble sleeping. I had difficulty sleeping at night due to leg cramps from spasticity. My doctor put me on a low dose of Diazapam at bedtime and it has worked very well for me. Not only do I not feel the leg pains, but I sleep very soundly. I wake up once or twice a night to use the bathroom but fall right back to sleep. I realize that Diazapam is a controlled substance so you should definately discuss this with your doctor. All I can say is that it has been a lifesaver to me :)

Good luck and I truly hope you find a solution that works for you!

(((hugs)))
Deb

[twopack]

Hey JJ, sleeping best on your stomach could be a sign of obstructive sleep apnea.  The position causes the lower jaw to fall forward as you relax in sleep, making breathing easier.  Of course, it can also just be your preferred sleep position BUT a person doesn’t have to be overweight to have sleep apnea.  In fact, problems with the brain can cause a sleep disorder known as central sleep apnea.

Also, people with sleep apnea aren't necessarily what are considered light sleepers.  They are often up to the bathroom more frequently than others BUT that is because they assume it was the urge to go that woke them up.  Actually, the brain woke them up to breathe and (while awake) they realize they feel some urinary urge.  Must be what woke them up, right?

I thought I got stiff at night because I slept so soundly that I didn't move around enough.  I didn't wake for the phone or door bell or the dog barking.  I slept 8-10 hours most nights yet I napped nearly every day for another 2-3 hours.  I was STILL never refreshed upon awakening.

Just an FYI for everyone - We cannot judge for ourselves how much sleep we are getting or the quality of that sleep.  It is possible to 'sleep' all night but get no more than a few minutes of the REM (rapid eye movement) sleep our bodies need (even though nobody can figure out exactly why we need it!).

PS - All that stiffness came from MS spasticity rather than the osteoarthritis I chalked it up to.  Some things take a while to figure out......

[twopack]

Duh.  Here’s what the first question should have been.

Are you feeling sleepy or tired during the day, having problems with concentration, possibly taking naps or unable to read without falling asleep?  OR are you thinking you need more hours of sleep because your normal routine is to sleep more hours each night?

If you are getting through the day without much problem you COULD be in a higher energy cycle.  I’ve had them.  They are sometimes followed by times that I can’t get enough hours behind closed lids.

If you are doing OK you may be able to plan to turn in later at night when you are sufficiently sleepy (and tired) and still wake up ready to enjoy the extra time available.


IF NOT, one more possibility is to listen to a recording (on the device of your choice) of relaxing music or “self-hypnosis” for insomnia.  The later actually walk you through a process so you focus on following the direction and suggestion rather than fully engaging you own mind.  (For anyone with worries about such things, you can listen the first time while you’re wide awake and review what kind of things you will be hearing in a more suggestible state.  I did that!  Otherwise I could never fully trust and relax (it’s a hippie history thing).

[twopack]

My guess is that sleeping pills won't help this.  You already fall asleep fine.  The pills that KEEP you asleep will probably leave you feeling hung over in the morning.  It's too late to take a sleeping pill when you wake up at two, three or four.

A small dose of something like Lorazepam (taken IF you awake too early and can't return to sleep) might help.  It could help you relax enough to get back to sleep.  You would have to be very careful not to use them every night so you don't develop tolerance or dependence.

It is actually suggested that people who can't sleep should get OUT of bed if they aren't asleep within 20 minutes.  Keep lights low if you can but engage in an activity until you feel sleepy again.  Maybe fix a cup of herbal tea?

Was this going on before your summer break?  (I'm thinking activity or schedule change)

Are you uncomfortable?  (not really in pain but not fully comfortable either)  A couple of plain Tylenol, an extra blanket or a cool compress over the eyes (scented with lavender?) have all helped me at times.

Are you using your CPAP regularly?  Is it helping?  Is it an irritation?

Are you taking your medications on the same schedule as always?

Have you had another birthday?  (Some sources say we need less sleep as we get older.)

What's your mind doing as soon as you wake up?  Do you look at the clock first thing?

What are your thoughts as you go to bed and fall asleep?  (It is possible to 'program' ourselves to wake up at specific times.)

Maybe it's time to ask a doctor to review your meds?  (Changing a dose or rescheduling the timing of some meds can make a big life difference.)

For sure it is time to notify your CPAP prescribing physician, give an update and ask for suggestions.  That's a specialist in sleep disorders for you, right?  (Not your MS specialist)

And then, don't over-think this long list.  My intention isn't to get you obsessing more about the lack of sleep.  That would likely only make things worse.

[Francyna]

Hi LuLu54'
  My insomnia started after my hysterectomy. So menopause definitely played a part. I take a hormone replacement , so far it's been helping.
I know prior to taking hormone replacement I would stay up all night. 3:00/3:30 am I would finally dose off, just to wake up 3 hrs. later. Well after a few weeks of that my body just broke down. I went into full flare. My body felt like an elephant was siting on top of it.

    So I've been   sleeping like a baby since I started  hormonal therapy.  I hope I was  able to be of help to you....stay well.

[supermum_ms]

I've totally changed my sleep pattern, but its been years, since my big bang in 09 so i think i'm kinda stuck with it now. Its not that i wake up, the only thing that gets me up once i am asleep, is my bladder. I'm more not able to fall asleep easily anymore, it doesn't matter how sleepy i feel when i head off to bed, as soon as i'm laying down im just wide awake.

It really feels like i have more energy just by being fully supported, my body is using up energy sitting, standing, walking, tremors etc. laying down seems to be the only time my body isn't constantly moving so even if i dont get many hours asleep, i'm still resting so i actually dont feel like i've had a bad night. I often hear the birds or see the light starting to come in before sleep arrives, and up before 10am (i dont work so can get away with doing that) but i do need a rest in the afternoon.

I'm really pushing the envelope by 3 and sitting in a trembling stupor by 4, i send my self off to bed and bugger it, i'm wide awake. Sometimes i sleep and other times not, it doesn't matter how much sleep i got that night, i still feel more energetic after i've had a lay down. lol the only thing that has worked for me is not being bothered if i am awake, i day dream, meditate etc and i've noticed that i seem to fall asleep if i lay flat on my stomache, no pillow. No clue why, i've always slept fetal style lol strangly uncomfortable on my stomach but if i now need uncomfortable to fall asleep, then i dont really care.

All bets are off when the fatigue is visiting, i can sleep the clock and still not feel like i've had a wink, lol and still fall asleep again on a blink. I'm dead to the world once i finally do sleep, hmmmm just a thought, are you a really light sleeper, wake up at the slightest sound, like what happens with sleep apnea or similar? Sorry i can't help exactly, though i do sleep weird now, i do realise its not the same thing, and dont have anything to offer you other than a hug!

HUGS...........JJ

[yorkieville]

Hi, Lulu.

I've had this problem ever since my MS began, and discovered that the Valium my D.O. prescribed for my small fiber neuropathy, helps me sleep.

I know that you don't want to depend on sleeping pills, but maybe a small dose, perhaps just 2 mg. of Valium would help you get the sleep your body needs.

Sheila

[torikat32]

Hi Lulu I have the sam problem but I have a hungry cat that digs her claws into my face till I get up and feed her. Have you tried melatonin? all natural product its even great and safe to use on  dogs like mine who are afraid of thunder or fireworks just one pill calms him down.